A Conversation About...

A Conversation about
Leadership in Cultivating Inclusive Cultures

Episode Description

Heather and Matthew continue their conversation on organizational culture, digging deep into what real inclusion looks like beyond buzzwords and checklists. They explore why inclusion is an action, not just a policy, and how small leadership moves—from shifting where you sit to asking better questions—can transform a team’s sense of belonging. With powerful stories from classrooms, offices, and lived experiences, this episode offers practical insights into creating spaces where every voice is truly heard and valued.

Key Points and Takeaways

  • Inclusion is a behavior exhibited by leaders to create a belonging environment rather than just an outcome to be achieved.
  • Inviting dissenting opinions and fostering open-ended discussions can enrich understanding and improve collaborative efforts.
  • Physical positioning and demonstrating acts of humility can be powerful tools for leaders to cultivate more inclusive cultures.
  • Leaders should embrace curiosity and employ strategies like asking "say more about that" or "what makes you say that" to deepen understanding and encourage inclusive conversations.
  • Sacrifices made by leaders for the greater good of the organization can significantly boost individual employee morale and contribute to an inclusive culture.
Podcast Guest

Matthew Hayes,
AS, NLP

Matthew Hayes is a coach specializing in mindset, mental agility, resilience, interpersonal relationships, team building, and executive coaching for individuals and organizations. He has been a NASA space flight technologist, program analyst, and leadership development business owner in the public and private sectors. Outside of his professional work, he teaches entrepreneurship in his community, is a Gordon Ramsay fan and foodie, and is an eager adventure seeker. Matthew is a Leadership Coach for Intentional Teaming with certifications in Neurolinguistic Programming, Intercultural Development, and Electrical and Mechanical Technology.
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Host: Heather Volchko

Guest: Matthew Hayes

All right, well, last week we were talking just about organizational culture, and it’s this big thing. Everybody has a lot of words around it, but what that looks like and how that plays out, gosh, it is so many things all at the same time and never nearly as clean as what we probably would hope it would be. So this week, we are shifting. We’re going to pick up right where we left off.

We’re talking about inclusive cultures. So if we are kind of responsible as leaders for the culture that is, you know, around us, if that’s things that we are directly responsible for or we’re just kind of, you know, stepping to the side of it, but we’re sort of influencing it in our own ways. This week in particular, you know, what does inclusive culture look like? What does that mean? How do I get there, right? Especially right now, with DEIA being a big buzzword and a variety of different things.

I think there’s a lot of misnomers around what it is or what. What counts as inclusive and what doesn’t. So this conversation is just kind of opening up all the cans and worms, and we’ll just sort of see where it goes.

Absolutely. Yeah. I’m so excited about this because inclusion is literally one of my favorite things. I know my background is kind of DEIA, right? So diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility. But honestly, I feel like the inclusion is really kind of the undercurrent of all of it, because if I want to be inclusive, well, my equity is going to be in place, my accessibility is going to be in place, my diversity is going to be in place, I’m going to pull the right people to the table. I’m going to make sure that they can get there and that they can actually contribute.

So it’s like, for me, I see inclusion is really that undercurrent to the entire conversation. So, yeah, I’m really excited about this, too.

Well, and it’s fun, too, because, like, I come at this from that special ed world, and then special ed, we use the word inclusion in the sense of students with disabilities get access to and are involved, they are included in the general education spaces or classes or social opportunities or extracurriculars or whatever that may be. And we always come at it from the sense of, well, you can’t just put a body in a space and call it inclusion. Like, you actually gotta, like, do something with what’s going on in that space to make it really inclusive so that that student could actually be part of it and not just in it, and that, you know, from the special ed and disability side of things, and then, you know, stepping into some of the DEIA work and, right? Like, what does inclusion look like beyond just a structure or series of checkboxes?

Yeah, that’s such a good, like, just springboard to this, because for me, in my experience, I’ve seen in different organizations, different cultures, um, exactly what you said, kind of a checkbox. And it’s like, well, you’re, you got invited, so you were included. And in a way, but like you said, not necessarily because, kind of to our last episode where we talked about culture and dynamics and, you know, but, yes, I might be at the table, but do I feel comfortable saying anything?

And did anyone even ask my opinion? And when you ask my opinion, did you make eye contact when I spoke or were you looking away and on your phone? And, like, there’s so many pieces that tie into the bigger picture because for me, the way that I always look at it, I know you have your own kind of little one-liner of inclusion, which I definitely want to hear more about. But for me, it’s always inclusion is behavior.

Sometimes I hear people talk about it as if it’s a result, and it’s not. Inclusion is what I do. Belonging is the result. I can’t behave in terms of belonging. But I can include you in the conversation, ask questions, actively listen, and as a result, you feel like you belong here. So for me, I always think of inclusion as, like, what am I doing? How am I showing up, and how am I holding space? And, you know, a big thing that I see in corporate cultures is like an open-door policy.

And that’s kind of a first step at it, right? And I’ve worked with some leaders in that space, and that creates, I think, I know, last time we talked about humility in leadership, and sometimes when it comes to leaders, we can put those things in place under the guise that, okay, well, now I’m making room for others. They can come talk to me. But then there’s also the undercurrent of what is the current culture.

And is that even accessible? Is that a thing that people do? So I remember seeing last year working with the organization, and they started with the open-door policy, and not many people were showing up. And the ones who were showing up are just, like, on Yelp. It’s the people who want to complain. So they transitioned a little bit to something that I thought was really cool, which is, we’ll come to you.

And rather than making the employees come to the leader’s office, the leader decided to work remotely and would go to their different groups and would just plant their laptop in the middle of the room and say, Well, I’m here with you, and anytime during the day, right? Like, just come over and stop by the desk, and we’ll talk. And that little bitty shift of just, I’m willing to come to your space versus making you come to mine.

Not everyone engaged, obviously not everyone had some question. But them seeing the person there is what created the ripple effect of, hey, I saw so and so, he was in your office the other day. What was that about? Or they just started a whole new conversation of, oh, they’re a part of us. They’re not some on Mount High or in some other different group. Like, they’re a part of the team.

We see that.

Yeah, go ahead.

We see that all the time in schools. If that’s from district leadership or from building leadership, it’s one thing to say, you know, you can email me, you can call me, you can stop in any time, right? Like, I’m here for you. There’s still if, if the leaders aren’t, then kind of putting themselves in, you know, if it’s a district leader putting themselves in a building, if it’s a building leader putting themselves in a classroom, right? Like, yeah, there is still a disconnect of, like, yeah, I mean, I hear I can go to you, but, like, you don’t get it. You don’t understand, right? Like, there’s still this space that can be sort of used as a dismissive aspect that can kind of undermine. As a leader, we’re trying to do the whole open-door door. I’m here truly, whatever you need, I’m here for that.

And then if we’re not in their space and it’s like, eh but, like, do you even understand? Like, so maybe it’s really not worth my time because you’re not, like, totally actually going to understand it, but it is. It’s that, you know, I’ve seen so many building leaders who’ve gotten really creative with ways that they step outside of their office. You know, not that, like, they’ve got a zillion other things that they’re doing, but to truly position themselves in other spaces. So they are in the cafeteria, they are helping in the lunch lines, they are, you know, managing recess and stuff like that, right? Getting in the mix of the chaos, or they’re stepping into classrooms. I had a building leader who intentionally chose to, like, do co teaching and they had an instructional schedule around their building and they would go in and they would, you know, maybe ten minutes or 15 minutes, you know, nothing huge, but they were an active instructional collaborator with each of their staff, which, I mean, like, come on, like, to show, hey, I’ve still got those chops and, hey, I can actually, to a certain degree, I’m not going to run your classroom and all, you know, all those things, but I’ve got some skills and I can, I can leverage that here.

I think it also has been really cool because what we’ve been talking about with that humility and leadership, right? Yes, I’m the leader, and I’m walking into your space, but that means in your space, you’re the leader and I’m just co-leading, right? And so that whole hierarchy of, you know, leader, follower, and all of these things, right? Like, it’s kind of out the window because here that hierarchy just upended, completely reversed. I’m here in your space, so you’re leading and I am just doing this with you.

And so it just positions things so differently. And then talk about inclusive, right? Now, staff are going to go and have those conversations, and then they have common stories, and they can laugh at something that some kid said or something in some lesson. And now there’s like a culture where, oh, we are all actually just in this thing, and doing this thing together, feels completely different.

We’re people, and that’s the thing to always remember at the core of anything that we’re doing is we’re all people. I remember one of my, he was kind of like a family member, kind of like an uncle, like a mentor. You know, we have those people in our lives who just wore a lot of hats. And I had a guy like that for me growing up, through high school, and he was probably one of the most inclusive, loving leaders I’ve ever seen. But he held no formal leadership position.

He was just a nice guy from southern Alabama. Just only went to high school, but literally everybody in the city knew him when he walked by, because no matter who he went to, you just say, Hey, how are you? And ask him a question. How’s your day been? And everywhere we went, people were stopping him. Oh, it’s so good to see you. Oh, how’s the wife?How are the kids?

But one thing that I noticed, because you spoke about position earlier, is how he would physically position himself, and even in conversations with people, I would notice him lower his posture, and what I mean by that, and it’s something that I’ve adopted. Even yesterday, I’m having a conversation with a handful of folks, and we’re kind of standing. It’s not a formal meeting. We’re standing and having a bit of a dialogue.

But I take a seat, right? Just standing on a table, not an actual chair, but just physically lowering my eye from their eye level, and it allows them to feel more elevated that you’re taking up space. You’re the lead in this conversation. I’m facilitating. Or, you know, I think back to years ago when I was in a school and I was working with some students, and I kind of got a tour of the school with the principal and some of the other admin and staff, and some of the students were in the hallway, and they had some questions.

So I went over to the students, but I sat on the floor with them. Like, we got eye level with them. They’re little kids, and we’re just talking, and. But then after the combo’s over, I get back up and meet up with the principal, and they’re like, we’ve never seen anyone just sit on the floor with the kids and come to their level to where they no longer feel, like, lesser than or so even from a physical posturing and positioning, am I.

And that’s why I love the intricacies of inclusion, because it’s not always and if ever saying the right thing. It’s always about doing the right thing and creating the right feeling. It’s not about perfection. It’s about progress and people. So, inclusion in the workplace, this is, like I said, one of my favorite things.

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Inclusion is what I do. Belonging is the result.

MATTHEW HAYES

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Well, I think you’re kind of talking around it right now, but I definitely view inclusion as a choice. But if it’s a choice, that means that there needs to be options. And I think, I don’t know if this is true in your experience or not, but a lot of times, when I’m working on even sometimes they’re called inclusion initiatives, brought into some of those spaces to make those decisions, to try to create that culture, to create those dynamics that would be inclusive.

Sometimes people don’t even know the choices. Either they’re just sort of operating off of a checklist, and those must be the things that we need to do, or they see their view, they see their version, and they don’t even know what else might be out there to try to figure out other choices to make. And so, for me, I know part of the work that I do is just opening eyes and opening perspectives and providing just other either life experiences or have you thought about or just sort of those things to just widen the perspective and to almost, like, create multiple options that then could actually be choices.

Because you’re talking about. It’s a behavior, right? You know, choices are actions, are behaviors. Like, those are observable. Those are things that we do. But, I mean, if we’re making those choices, like, that means we gotta pick. And if I don’t know that there’s something to pick, well, then I’m just gonna do what I do, what I’ve always done.

Yeah, absolutely.

But so, if we’re saying that we have to make choices, then I think the big question then is, how do I know what I’m picking from? And so, as a leader, I may walk into a situation where I am not familiar. So I really don’t know what I’m playing in. I don’t know what I’m working with. I don’t know, maybe even what’s expected of me or what are my people’s norms. I know I have personally experienced that walking into classrooms and students have certain perspectives around either staff or, you know, for me, like women or white people or, you know, whatever that may be, there are all those perspectives, and I may or may not actually have a clue what exactly you know, what are those perspectives that they’re operating in?

So we’re going to be looking at these situations differently. We’re going to have different options that then become choices, which then become behaviors, right? Like, all of that kind of, like, stems from itself. So for me, it’s like, how do I learn from what I don’t know and what I might not even be aware of existing, right? Like, how do I even start those conversations? I think for me, a lot of it is like, how do I manage discomfort?

How am I, like, okay living in the space that I might not know everything, and I don’t have to know what I don’t know. I just need to know that I don’t know it and just allow that space for something else to show up and some other perspective, some other option that then we can walk that through together.

This is so good because this is the reason I love misunderstandings. And even specifically, like, personally, like, moments in my life where I’ve been misunderstood, they’re always such grounding spaces for me because it’s a reminder that not everybody knows you the way you know yourself. And therefore, I don’t know anybody the way I think I know them. So when I go into these spaces and I’m like, I have no concept of what’s going on here.

My biggest creed that I keep in my pocket is always “live curiously” and just ask questions, go into it, understanding that the same way people misunderstand me, I’m probably misunderstanding things, too. And the only way to kind of get to that next phase is to ask more. I’ll give you two of my favorite sayings that I’ve coached leaders upon that have really helped them to increase their cultural competence, to create more engaged dialogues with their groups.

The first one is “say more about that.” Someone will say something. And sometimes we have the tendency to try to respond, but not even know really how to respond or what they meant, but we just feel like we just got to say something back. And it’s, you know, just taking that quick pause of “say more about that” actually allows a person to go, like, to go a layer deeper. For one, it allows them to feel seen, like you’re actually listening and care about what they’re telling you. And then third, it gives you the information you need to make an appropriate response because maybe they actually have a question. Maybe they just wanted to share something with you.

And until you get a layer deeper, you don’t know that. So the first one is “say more”, and then the second one is maybe when a challenging situation comes up or someone has a differing opinion than mine, the question I always go to is, “what makes you say that?” And give someone another space to share a little bit more, right? Because they’re giving you their surface level. This is their outcome. This is the result of their thought.

But maybe it’s the thought process where something was a little misaligned. So when I say, What makes you say that? I get a chance to hear, well, how did you get to this conclusion? And maybe now I can help you along the way, or maybe you teach me something. Preferably, I learned a new way of looking at it. So I love that because that “live curiously” allows me so much space to work through that discomfort and to work through those moments where I might feel like I don’t necessarily.

I know I have the role of the leader, and I know they’re looking at me as the leader, but I don’t necessarily know exactly where to lead them. And I have to take a step back and say, well, we’re in this together. And sure, I might be driving the car, but you’re holding the gps and you’re watching the back tires and you’re doing, and it’s together that we actually get to the end of this goal.

Yeah, I mean, I think you. Lots of people have heard me say it at this point, but, like, I come from the camp that I believe everybody makes sense, even when they don’t. And so asking those questions helps me make sense of someone else, right? So just the words coming out of your mouth, I’m like, wait, what? But if I can ask them those open-ended questions and get them to share a little bit more, now I’m like, oh, I see where you’re coming from, right? I may still disagree with you, but I can now see where you’re coming from. So now, all of a sudden, you start to make more sense to me.

And now if I can ask some more follow up questions and truly do that in a curious, open, like I’m genuinely seeking to understand here, if I can do that in a way, I mean, that alone demonstrates an inclusive culture that I’m actually allowing space for things that I myself might be like, wow, I... Okay, right?

But it’s, as a leader, I should be wanting to compile as many different perspectives as possible because I’m not just going to have this one conversation this one time.

Right.

It’s going to come back up, and if I quelch this one and I don’t actually want to learn from it, it’s going to not prepare me to be able to handle it when it comes back up next month in a different group, with a different person about a different circumstance. So as a leader my, I have to actively seek diverse opinions. I have to look out and ask for differing perspectives, because I just also got to understand, especially in certain environments, people can sometimes be scared to share that because they might feel that their job is on the line or their promotion is on the line.

And especially in a society where money kind of is important because you got to take care of daycare and babysitters and parents, caregivers, and the rent and the mortgage and health issues and all kinds of things, I don’t want to risk my entire family for one opinion. So if the leader is not actively holding space and creating an environment where I can share that safely and openly, because, like I said back to, I think, our last podcast, where I wanted to really do a certain amount of work and the work that I was doing was meaningful to me, but it was the leader that was in the way of kind of closing that gap.

Sometimes we can have people who have such valuable perspectives based on their background that if we don’t have the right space for them, we’re slowing down the entire organization. And it’s not because we don’t have the answers. It’s just that the answers are sometimes scared to be put on the table. So this is really, really rich. Thank you for sharing that little piece.

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Lead to be forgotten and you will always be remembered.

MATTHEW HAYES

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No, of course. I mean, I think you and I live in intense moments on the regular. I think you and I are both maybe more comfortable in discomfort than the average person. But I think that comes from some of our perspectives, right? Like, what we’re sharing here is like, yes, we may disagree, but I’m not even sure that I understand what we’re disagreeing about until I give you that space to potentially even further communicate what we may actually disagree about, which then is potentially putting me in a position of more tension and more discomfort as I’m actively listening to what you’re actually sharing.

But I’m doing that in a way because I’m trying to understand you better so that we can actually work together better. We can collaborate, communicate, you know, the work can get done or whatever. But that space allowing that, you know, those, those opinions and approaching it in a way that is curious, like that is creating an inclusive space that’s, that is demonstrating that dissenting opinions is okay.

It’s actually welcoming them, seeking them, like going after them intentionally. Like, that is a very much like, practice what you preach, it’s much more than a checklist. It’s much more than, like, here’s the words you need to say to say that we’re inclusive, right? I was in a room where a district leader kind of announced, you know, this is a safe space. You can say whatever you want. Like, well, we don’t get to just announce that.

It actually has to be that for it to actually come through. And so I think this whole conversation has been talking about, you know, what are those leadership moves that are small, potentially even only internal? Am I myself okay to ask follow-up questions that might give me information that I… might not sit with me? Am I actively… I know last week you shared a story about a leader wanting dissenting opinions around them so that they could be held accountable, that they could, you know, actually have multiple views at the table.

Like, these are small things. These are small choices that any person can make in leadership, but the result of actually walking that and living that, you’re leading in an inclusive way.

Yeah. And knowing what I’m trying to accomplish. Like, because my role as a leader is to accomplish whatever that mission is, depending on the organization. And even a personal story from my own kind of work and career profession, I remember I’ve been at my last career for the last 15-16 years or so, and for a good portion of that, I tried to move up the ranks to get into different environments, to kind of change the type of work I was doing and ran into a lot of closed doors.

And it wasn’t until a few years after all that, actually during the pandemic, when there was a leader who had seen my work and said, You know what? Actually, that guy over there he’s doing some things that we could use some help with. Now, I was a part of his group, and he volunteered to pay for my labor costs, right? And to let me kind of go do a detail. A detail is like a government term for temporary work reassignment in a different location.

And he, this is just such a beautiful example of inclusive leadership, focused on the higher purpose because he volunteered an employee of his own group to go do work that was different from what his group was responsible for and go do that work in a different group and continue to pay his salary because he believed in that employee’s impact for the greater organization, right? So he was willing to take a sacrifice in his own group for the larger team goal.

And like that, not only did that help the overall organization, but for me, as that little employee for ten years who was struggling with belief and imposter syndrome, and should I keep pursuing this? Am I worth it? Am I good enough? Like, are people ever going to see my value as that one employee, to amplify that voice and say, no, I see you. You play a part here, actually, I’m going to be an ally of yours.

I’m going to support, I’m going to advocate for you. I’m going to make connections. And that’s the role of a leader is to help everyone, the greater team, and the individual person move forward. I have a quote taped onto my refrigerator downstairs at my house, and it says, “Lead to be forgotten and you will always be remembered.” And when you lead as a leader, when I take myself out of the equation, and I realize my focus is on the people and the purpose, and it’s not about me. It’s not about what role I play. It’s not about notoriety.

As a leader. I’m a servant. As a leader, I work for you. And when I understand that, I now become more inclusive by default, because that’s what I’m supposed to. That is my job is to create this space.

Thank you for that. I’m going to let that sit right there because that story and kind of putting that so forefront is exactly what we’re talking about next week. So we’re going to pick up with decoding leadership dynamics next week and dive into, like, what does that look like? Because I myself as a human am built a certain way, and so I’m going to lead a certain kind of way. And like we had talked about last week, sometimes that’s a match and sometimes it’s not.

But, like, what do we do with that? What are those dynamics? How can we at least be aware of those things so then we can make choices as we go. So thanks for this conversation. I’ll catch you next week.

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