Yeah. And, I mean, that lack of resolution has so much impact. I mean, like, it impacts us professionally, it impacts our students or our clients. Like, we don't have that continuation of services, or they just kind of file off a cliff, or we end up in all these, like, self-doubt loops in our own heads. I mean, like, how do you see it? How does that show up for you in your spaces? Cause I know, like, Marla, you're doing a lot of in-home, and Alex, you're doing a lot of clinic work, but it's also school-based. And so kind of, like, all of these different spaces I know in education, for me and some of my context, it was just a kid didn't show back up.
And that was that, right? Like, so some of my guys missed education because they were incarcerated. And so then there's no continuation. There's no closure. It just happened, and they're gone. And they're also not accessing their education either. So then when they come back, they're further behind. We're trying to play the catch-up game and fill in those gaps along the way.
Just because education inside of the juvenile justice units looks very different than inside of my classroom or our public or therapeutic school settings. So, I mean, we just have consequences for them in their own learning that they've got these weird splinters and gaps and things just because they didn't have a continuation of their education while they were also shifting facilities.
So, for you, what does it look like? What does that lack of closure look like, maybe on your client side? And then we can also shift over and talk about professionally and ourselves, as well.
Marla:That's a very good question. How does that leave our clients? I mean, one of the things I was just thinking about, when you're asking us this, Heather, is how, I don't know if this is true to you, too, Alex, but a lot of the time, I teach my clients tolerance, right? How to tolerate non-preferred tasks, how to tolerate change, how to tolerate transitions, how to transition from high-preferred activities to very low activities.
And as an analyst, you come up with some effective coping skills that you think that's appropriate for their age. And I'm over here thinking, like, man, like, those are some strategies I should probably adopt for me, I don't know if {...} in the classroom, right? But they have such a hard time, just like I think any other human does, right? Like, I don't know if anyone here can say that, oh, change is awesome. I love change. Not really, right?
I would assume that. But I see them in distress, right? Like, I see them, oh, gosh, like, when these changes are coming up, and perhaps you're not getting closure on that before. It does bring distress. But you're asking how does that leave our clients apart from just what I've seen. Maybe distress, but I don't know, could there be a sense of they feel proud of the work that they've done? Are families happy with the services that we're providing?
Alex:Yeah, I guess it just depends on, like, how it happened, right? If it was abrupt, then it's just like you're never gonna know how the client felt losing someone that maybe they worked with for years that, you know, just like you said, we're a part of their routine just as much as they're a part of our routine. And it's like when you have a child that has a deficit and not be able to tolerate changes, then, it's like you kind of throw the world into a spiral. But if we're doing our job well, which I'm sure you are, Marla, and I know I am, but we are working on that. And maybe they can cope with it when those abrupt changes. But it just really depends, you know? And for me, at least, like, I've had a couple of instances where a client ended up leaving, and it was mutual, it was nice. And it's like, it was. It sucked that they were leaving, but at least I knew that the handoff was good, that they're gonna be in a good place.
But there's some that they just left. Like, it was Monday, getting an email, a very informal email saying services were done. Tuesday, that's it. And it's like, that's all. There's no thank you. There's no appreciation for all the years of service or anything like that. Yeah, those are the ones that I would have to seek that closure myself. Like, I would have to reach out, maybe call them, like, hey, what's going on? Or is everything going good?
But it also just depends on how the, I guess, the terms were when things ended. So was it like a messy breakup, or was it mutual? And, like, everybody understands, so there's just so many factors when it comes to, you know, this situation. And again, I've had clients just reach out to me, and they're like, Hey, things are going good. I had two twins that they left services just with us because they just couldn't continue doing the drive from where our clinic was located to their house. And it was a very far drive, which is understandable. And we also didn't have anybody that could go to them because for the same reason.
But they reached out to me earlier this year, and they're like, We finally got services. They had discontinued services with us for a year, so they had been without services for a year, and I checked in. I was like, Oh, my God, are they okay? Because you always got to worry about regression or anything like that. And I was happy to hear that both the boys were doing good. Everybody was in a good place.
They were striving, persevering in school, and they were doing great. So that instantly brought all, like that worry and concern that I had for them, just completely alleviated. But, I mean, there's still some that I'm still thinking about to this day, and it's been years. I'm just like, man, I hope everything's going good. But again, it was in a situation where it was mutual, we had to just part ways because the family was moving out of state and.
But I still wonder about him because I, us as practitioners, we just put so much of ourself into it, and, depending on how long you work with that child or, it's like part of you is leaving, and that sucks. So, yeah, I guess it's just sometimes you just gotta really either seek out that closure yourself or just move on and just know you did your best.
But I'm still struggling with that. So, like, I'm like, oh, man. I guess I think about him. So just what ifs and wondering. I drive myself crazy sometimes thinking about all those things.
Marla:No, but you're not the only one, though. I'm the same way, Heather. I'm sure has gone through that, too. I mean, different settings, different people, different capacities. But again, that's something as humans we go through.
Yeah, I mean, I'm even thinking of, I mean, like, we've been, like, I've been in school with my students, and some fight breaks out, and there's a suspension that's the result of it. And then they're gone for a few days, and then in those days, the school pushes the paperwork, and now they have a change of placement. So, like, a lot of times, the students that are doing those things are students that I'm investing tons of time and energy and resources and communications and checking in with them and working with their families. And, like, that's just a deep dive, is a heavy lift case.
And then a lot of times those end up in some blow-up, disappearance, and change. Like, and it's just gone. And so that is truly, I think we had talked about it last week or in the hangout, we were talking about just like, how do we… I don't like it; it's almost like it's contingent on our rapport. Like, if we were actually good with whoever it was that is now gone, then we can have those conversations and be like, Hey, are you good? Are you cared for?
In my context, we're asking, like, are you safe? Are you actually taken care of? Even if school is not going to be that picture at the moment, are you cared for? And that's received well by students and families who knew that me and my team were working with them and we were trying to figure stuff out and we were an advocate for them regardless of the current moment. It's the ones that were like, ah, this school, this whatever, right? And we just get lumped in with all of the policies and procedures of the school setting that we were in.
And then we just kind of get, what's the phrase? Like something about the baby thrown out with the bathwater or something like this. So it didn't matter. And so, like, the communications were gone. If we called, if we emailed, we weren't going to get a response because, you know, damage is done and the story is closed. Like, it's whatever. But that is like, there is all of those moments for our students and for our clients, and what that looks like for them. But that's also us, too, right? Because I used to hate those moments where I'm like, gosh darn it all, and I'm never going to see the kid again, right? So if it was like, I've had students incarcerated for life sentences on stuff that happened on the block, and then that's done, right? Or they're in for so many years that they're certainly not coming back to school after that period of time is over, and so it doesn't matter. And that's not even, like, give them a phone call, whatever.
It's show up at the unit if I'm gonna have any kind of conversation or communication with them. And so it truly is just done, broken. That is it. That's the end of the story. And so I think that's where, for me as a professional, I start having all those what ifs and did I do right by them, and did I do everything I could, and what was the last conversation we had, and how did we, you know, how did that pan out? And, you know, all of those just professional wonderings, which I know both of you have hinted at in your own ways, right?
What's the family think of me? How's the kid doing? Is their next team serving them well? Does the next team have what they need to be able to serve them well? The number of students that moved into change of placement or moved out of district, that I would give my card and say, Give this to your new teacher. Right? I will answer any phone call or email that they want to send me. Advocate for yourself. We've practiced those skills, right? Like, if you're good with me, I'm good with you. They can learn to be good with you, too, right? And trying to rub that rapport off onto whoever, that future team maybe, even though I don't know who it is, and there's no formal transition process of the new team and all the collaborations and this all handoff and everything, it's on the behest of the kid to be able to manage that in the midst of all the transition, too. So I don't know, how do you handle walking through transition just as a professional, if it's colleagues coming and going, or just kind of that unresolved?
Like, I don't know. How do you keep your own thoughts kind of in check without running away with all of those incredibly negative self-thought things that all of us are prone to in our profession, but, yeah, how do you do that? What does that look like for you in your context?
Alex:I ride the chaos.
Say that again.
Alex:I ride the chaos. It's very hard to fight against the chaos. Like, people coming, people going. It's just like, if I fight against it, I'm just gonna cause myself more damage than good. I just ride with it. I go with it, and I navigate it as best as I can. That's really the only way to stay sane.
Marla:Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, you kind of have to go through the chaos, right? Like, I remember where you and I used to work at, Heather. The first thing that I was told was like, Okay, are you ready to join? Are you ready to get onto this fast-moving train at a high speed, and it's not going to stop anytime soon? Are you ready to hop on it? Like, you just got to jump on it, and it's kind of like, okay, right?
That comes with transitions and introductions and transitioning things or taking on new things and all that. You kind of have just go through the chaos. I think of that. I don't know if you guys have seen it, it's like a gif of, like, I don't know if it's like a cartoon, but it looks like a dog, and the dog in there, things are on fire, and it's like, I'm fine, and it's like drinking coffee.
Everything is fine.
Marla:Yeah. And it's just burning up. And, like, I identify myself with that because, you know, if it's too quiet, too smooth, I do question a little bit. Like, okay, why is this? This is too good to be happening right now. Like, I don't know. Like, this is a calm before the storm. Something's about to go up right now. But, yeah, but in all serious, in all seriousness, how to handle those transitions? Well, like, kind of what I was already talking about before, if it's hard for our clients to expect and tolerate change, for us, it's the same way. Maybe we just hide it better.
I don't know. Deep inside, we're like, oh, gosh. But you have to do the best that you can, and it's something that you kind of have to just push yourself through. I don't know if it's the same thing for you, Alex, if you. Or for you, Heather, but again, it's just one of those things that you may not fully be prepared for, but you have to be ready in case something does, in case something like that does happen.
Alex:I think after a while, you kind of get a bit jaded.
I was just thinking that.
Alex:With all of these transitions, you…
Marla:Wait, you get what?
Jaded.
Marla: Oh, jaded. Okay. They said in-jaded.
Alex:Yeah. So you get a bit jaded with all these changes after a while. I think I used to be bright-eyed and bushy, like, oh, everything's good and believing the best in people. But after seeing so, so much turnover with a lot of the RBTs that have come and gone through my clinic, seeing so much turnover at some of the schools that I've worked at and seeing how that affects the clients in clinic base and my clients at the school, it's at a certain point, you just kind of get jaded and you're just kind of like always expecting the worst, and then when something great happens you're always pleasantly surprised.
But that's kind of like the mindset I've developed, which I've never been that type of person, but I mean, this whole career choice has definitely pushed me in that way, so I just kind of expect the worst and hope for the best.
Yeah.
Alex:And if it happens, it's always great. And there has been a lot of moments where we get, like, a brand new RBT and we're like, I don't know, they're not like. They don't seem like they got it. But then, with all of our feedback and guidance, they completely surprised us and ended up being some of the best. So it's just like, be cautiously optimistic always, because it's because you never know what can happen. You never know what you're going to get with your staff or the people you collaborate with.
It's just like, you know, I mean, I had an IEP meeting yesterday, and, you know, in my perspective, I felt like this school thought that we were like the devils because we came in here, we were like, hey, we're not going to work on academics. That's not what we're here for. We're here to work on behavior reduction. And teaching the skills to be successful in the classroom, and I was very clear about that.
And when I said that to the special education teacher, she looked at me and thought I was crazy. But when I told her, This is my job, this is what I'm supposed to be doing, she looked at me like I was a bit crazy. But in this IEP meeting, you know, almost from November till this month, she was talking our praises.
Well, I think what we're talking about is we've really danced around. Like, there are ramifications of not having closure for the people that we serve and for ourselves as well. So, next week, let's pick up with kind of what we were just talking about. What are those… The impacts that it has on us as professionals, and then based on those impacts, what do we do? Where do we take that? How do we handle that? How do we manage that, both ethically to our board of ethics that we do report, but also to ourselves, and kind of how we have learned in our own professional practice to walk through tough things?
I'll catch you next week.
Marla:Sounds good.
