Host: Heather Volchko
Guest: Alex Grosso and Marla Watts-Pacheco
So last week, we were talking about just the natural chaos that comes with the occupation. These are things that we are not prepared for. We come in with all of these perfect pictures of all these smooth transitions and solid client handoffs and all these, like, first ten days of school and send off into summer and all of these great best practices. So just to be clear from the jump here, we're not saying they're not good.
We're just saying that we don't always get the opportunity to do those things. And so as we get in the mix, it's really just chaos becomes the norm. And so, Alex, I know last week you were kind of like you just sort of get jaded. You have all these hopes and these dreams and these aspirations and what you think it should be like, and then it just isn't, and then isn't again. And then it isn't again. And so just over and over and over, it just beats us down. And we just kind of do get jaded. So this week we're talking all about how do we deal with that?
So how do we actually be jaded in some ways about our work, but still show up and do right by the people that we're serving, do right by our practice and our profession, and also do right by ourselves? So what I'm wondering is, as you're kind of seeking your closure, one of the things that is popping up for me really big right now is just staff turnover, that we've got lots of people this time of year making decisions to move on to other jobs. We're getting all those announcements of people moving that may not have been sharing that they were looking for jobs along the way.
So there's just a lot of, like, that natural turnover that happens. It happens all throughout the year, too. But how do you deal with new clinicians coming and going, new bosses coming and going? What do you do? How do you professionally keep yourself grounded in a way that you can still show up and you can still serve your people? And you can keep your own self sane amidst all of this, specifically that staffing, turnover.
Alex:You can maintain all that. It's kind of hard, at least, depending on how big your clinic is or how many people work under you. Some of the time, at least for my perspective, you just kind of got to get in there yourself until things stabilize, and you just got to do. And I think, ironically, when those moments do happen, those tend to be some of the most gratifying moments, because doing that direct one-to-one, for me, it's like, oh, man, simpler time.
Who's going to be my overhead? Oh, wait, it's me. It's okay.
It's fine. So, yeah, it's a double-edged sword because then you're devoting 5 to 6 hours to one kid that day, where you have multiple cases, and you got to make sure you got to see the rest of those. But it also kind of feels nice to not turn off your brain for a second, but kind of like, okay, I'm just gonna go with this and respond, and you get to teach the skills, and you're doing all the direct work.
So at least for me, you know, like I said, it's like a double-edged sword. You know, it's fun because it's like, okay, this staff that I was training up left, that sucks. I hate that. You know, it's very disappointing. You know, you put a lot of work and effort into training up somebody, and then you just end up leaving on you. But on the other hand, now I get to do work, and that could be a lot of fun because it just takes it back for you. And when it comes to a new boss, though, or anything like that, I really haven't experienced that for the most part. It's pretty consistent all throughout my ABA career, even as an RBT, having pretty similar bosses all throughout.
So, yeah, I feel like I've gotten lucky with that regard. Maybe Marla could chime in a little more, and maybe she talked about her perspective when it comes to a boss.
Marla: Well, I was just thinking, after COVID, I'm sorry, when COVID hit, we had some instant changes in our leadership because, unfortunately, some were laid off, some chose to stop working because it just was not safe. So, yeah, I know you're asking about dealing with clinicians. Well, that itself, right? Like, our leaders are changing. And that was very unexpected, something I was not prepared for. But I think maybe, I guess it just really depended on who you were working with and how that person is. But I was very lucky to have very easy, smooth, and understanding leaders when that was happening because I think that was just a time that we had to do that, right?
It wasn't a time to be nitpicky, like, oh, no, this is a universal thing. Everyone right now is going through such a hard time, so I think we really had to lean on each other, and I think that's something that, it's kind of like the unspoken rules, right? Be kind. But that really is something that we have to do when we are working in this field, because there is no time to joke around and to mess around or to be mean or anything. We really just have to depend on one another and do our best. And so I think for me, I think that's something that I've done and I've seen is just having understanding individuals and they're ready to jump in, just how I'm ready to jump in. And it's kind of okay, like, it's kind of the blind leading blind for a while, but we've been very patient and kind to one another.
But that was really during COVID, and even now, it's been, what? Four years after COVID? When did COVID happen? 2020?
I don't even know at this point how people count the end.
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It takes a village to serve our people, but sometimes it takes a village to keep us in our professions.
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Marla: Yeah. Like, I lost a year or two there, so.
Alex:Yeah, it's like a dark period.
Marla: But even then, I think that's something that, as we have transitions and within our organization, I think that it's been okay. It's been understanding. And I think me personally, it was an opportunity to learn about myself, too, and how things that I have learned over the course of dealing with closure and transitions and those unexpected changes and feeling jaded and feeling delusional at the end of the day. Just kind of learning that, okay, like, yes, those things are part of the norm. It's chaotic. But I know what I can do. I know what I can bring, and I have people who are helping me. It's a team. I don't have to do it all.
So it's a moment just to kind of depend on one another, I think, to kind of help with that
Alex: Takes a village.
Marla: Yes. I say that all the time. I think as it goes to Heather and to, like, many other people, it really does take a village, like, with parents, other colleagues, professionals.
I mean, but you talk about how it takes a village to serve our people, right? But sometimes it takes a village to keep us in our professions. I mean, I know there are definitely moments where I am like, What am I doing? Why am I doing this? Why am I here? What am I thinking? Right? Like, and I have those moments, and for me, I have different people that I call, right? So, like, you have experience in this arena. What I'm about to share with you is not going to rock you or surprise you because you've been there and you've felt that and you've walked that and you've figured it out and you've got some words of wisdom that you can give me, or at least I can know that I'm not alone. And it's a common experience, right?
And I think for me, just that supportive network has been such a game-changer in all of my career. And if that has looked like someone down the hall, or if that has looked like a phone call to somebody else, or jumping into even online forums and different discussion groups that I'm part of, and just seeing that my experience is not just my experience, that has also been incredibly helpful. But I think truly it is so many voices around me just grounding me and reminding me, like, what I'm doing and why I'm doing it, regardless of the dumpster fire, the chaos that is going on around me, that is making me question my life choices.
Marla: You're like, wow, I'm not the only one that's going through this. And not that it's like, yes, you're going through the pain, too, but, okay, I'm not the only one that's having these thoughts and these moments of regrets or disappointments and all of that. Yeah, I think we all have had those moments. And you mentioned how you join networks or forums or a phone call sometimes. I think it's a moment where you also have to discover your own therapy, your own therapeutic tools, of what's going to help you and what's going to help you kind of gain clarity and, like, you know, bring you back to stand on your own two feet again.
Sometimes I think it's a moment to also just take a moment to, kind of, reevaluate, right? And come up with your own strategies and things like that. But I know for me, learning it also kind of helps me, right? I don't know how I can tie that in, but what skills am I lacking that I need to improve to make this situation better for me? I always love learning, Heather, you know this. I always say I love learning.
If I don't know, teach me, or I will be asking questions. I also know, okay, try to learn. Okay, what is it that I can do to kind of learn from the situation and move from that? But, yeah, sometimes it's that and just kind of like talking to others and just like, other folks, other colleagues that are in the same arena that we're in, it really helps just kind of have, build that network and that encouragement.
Alex:Yeah, I agree. So at my company, we tend to do BCBA hangouts, so we'll just kind of hang out. Only four of us. Well, three of us now. And it's funny because for two BCBAs, they tend to spend more time at the clinic together, but they're just so busy, they never have a moment to chat. Myself. I'm always out. I'm known as the outward BCBA, going to all the schools and traveling around, barely at the clinic.
But it's funny, when we're together and we're just talking, it's like everything just pours out, and then I'm just like, oh, wow. All those things that I was thinking, they're feeling the same way as well. Who would have thought? So it's like, yeah, I hundred percent agree with you guys. Yeah, I talked to my significant other about what I've gone through at work and all the craziness, and it's like, she's a good ear to listen, but it's very hard for her to level with me because she doesn't really understand those stressors, you know? Her stressors are much more different than mine, but when I talk to my colleagues and then they end up having the same stressors, I'm like, okay, cool, great.
I'm not alone in this. This is wonderful. So, yeah, I definitely agree with you guys. Like, just talking it out with people that are going through similar journeys as you are, it's always a big relief and always just kind of gives you that moment of relief. That you're like, okay, cool. I thought I was the only one feeling this way. I thought I was the only one that was in this position.
You know, for such a long time, I was just wondering, maybe, am I cut out to be a BCBA? Like, I looked at them at work, and they're always so happy and chipper. I'm just like, man, how did he not let this affect them? And then we talk about it one day, I'm like, oh, cool. It is affecting you guys. You just know how to compartmentalize it much better than I do. So it's always interesting when you take the minute to sit down and talk and realize how similar everything really is.
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You cannot give what you don't have.
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Marla: Well, one thing I think that's really coming, that's very popular right now, is social media, right? That's kind of like another escape, another outlet where people are sharing their experiences, and you see other people watching that, like, oh, I can connect with that, or I can relate to that. I've seen other behavior analysts, other clinicians, and sometimes it could be memes or gifs or jokes, and I understand.
And it's like, to me, it's funny. Maybe to my husband or to other people, they’re like How is that funny? But when you're in that world, it makes total sense. Social media is something else that's kind of and like at a healthy capacity, right? What are those things that can kind of help you stay sane, right?
But that can also backfire and just makes you become insane once you just… social media.
Alex: Go down the rabbit hole.
Marla: Yeah.
Alex: Too deep.
Marla: Yeah, too deep. But again, knowing those boundaries, right? For yourself.
Well, you literally just said what I was thinking, was, I mean, part of this is boundaries, right? Being able to communicate to significant others, friends, colleagues. I am in a funk, right? Like, there is something going on, right? And we can create that boundary around ourselves so that we aren't overextending and pushing ourselves. I do that, quite honestly, with school teams in crisis situations. Like, the one who was around to begin the crisis probably shouldn't be the one responding to the crisis, because they themselves are also escalating. And so we're not in our right frame of mind.
So to be able to communicate that to people around us and say, Hey, I just need, like, ten minutes to zone out and scroll and laugh at other people that are having similar frustrations, and they're putting it out in these funny social media things, right? I fully understand. I just need the space to do that, right? And then I can re-engage, right? Because I'm stressed and I'm not in a good place, and I'm probably going to say something or do something that I'm going to regret.
And so to be able to communicate that with our people, you know? Some of it is we're tapping into those supportive networks that we have around us, but some of it is just having the time and space to do that in a way that then the people around us who may not actually understand kind of the chaos or that we're just living in that on the daily to give us that space to kind of pull ourselves back together and then be able to re-engage with them in a more human, more sane way.
Marla: And it's tough, Heather, you know,
It’s so hard! So hard.
Marla:To put those boundaries and speak up for yourself, because, again, we're in a role where we are giving, right? But you cannot give what you don't have, right? And so I just want to recognize it's hard. And others who are hearing this, yes, it is hard, but it's something that we have to do. I actually was reading something on social media today, and I was like, Oh, my goodness.
I don't know if it was kind of like a sign to me, but it was something along the lines of, like, the care that you provide and how attentive you are at work, it's the same thing that you should do for your personal life. And I figured just that I can tie that in with what you're saying about having that outlet live. Like, okay, I need to escape for a little bit. Like, what replacing behaviors are we engaging in, right?
I just think, man, like, so much that we teach our kiddos and our students something that we should also be putting into practice ourselves. Speak up, advocate, functional communication, right? It sounds easy, you know? But, I mean, it's just a reminder. If I'm teaching so hard to a client or student on functional communication, and like, why aren’t they getting it? But, Marla, are you doing it, too, for yourself, for your sanity when you're feeling jaded?
Alex: Practice what you preach.
Marla: Yeah, right? And it's like, no, I'm not. Like, so, okay, we cannot blame little four-year-old Billy for not doing that, you know? I just wanted to bring that up and recognize it is hard, but something that we have to do, and honestly, that took me time to learn that. I'll be very transparent. It was very hard to set that time aside for myself. It's weird, but it's a good thing.
Alex: And I think we are all pretty guilty of still struggling with it. I know I do. I struggle with it to this day, but I try my best to practice it as much as I can.
Well, thank you for joining me this week, and next week we're going to land this month full of optimism and all of those potentials that we can be hopeful for both for our future and for the future of those that we are no longer serving and have kind of sent off into whatever is next for them. So I'll talk to you then.
Marla: See you.
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