Unintentional Intentionality

Yeah, I'm really lucky that the folks that tend to be the deepest thinkers, they tend to think much less of themselves than what their resumes or CVs would say about them, are also the ones who are really the most deeply convicted about what it is that they're doing, which has then, especially in partnership, when they start seeing each other and understanding how everybody kind of fits together and we're moving kind of toward this common direction, if that's on a project or if that's just like the mission of the organization, they really root in.

And it's been, I don't know, very fueling because I know I myself have walked through some rough patches along the way of TLC and there's always someone who is like, hey, thanks for this, or, hey, that was really cool, or just like different people kind of bringing that passion and excitement back into the work really helps me even, you know, keep my head above water when some of the stuff is getting kind of crazy too.

But yeah, you're right, you're right. There is a deeply passionate part of- It's kind of a through line through most of our folks. I don't think I have intentionally interviewed or screened for that at all. But you're right, that is very true.

Matthew: I know we get into a whole bunch of different things in this series, but admittedly this is probably one of my favorites because just this whole conversation on culture, and that's why I love even- Thank you Flora for the way that you've helped even outline this whole series with us being able to touch on so many different topics, but this one of shoulder to shoulder and kind of just the team culture of who we are as TLC.

There's just so much depth to it because one of my favorite things about culture is it's not necessarily what we do, it's how we do what we do.

Absolutely.

Matthew: And there's been so many dynamics in the evolution of this company, coming from the pandemic, to all types of different shifting things in the country, to hybrid teams, to remote working, to just people having life stuff, right? And it's been really cool to be alongside you and kind of watch how you manage the ebbs and flows of business, to see the adaptability and the agility and leadership.

So it's been really, really cool. And I'm just kind of curious, now taking a step out objectively back and looking at the last year, maybe two years, or just how things have evolved over time, I'm curious how you would describe the culture of the organization? How would you see that? And also like, have you ever managed teams like this in the past? There's this kind of new, fresh thing kind of on your plate, and you're learning as you're going, or kind of, I'm curious how you're taking all that experience from other things that you've done through your story, and kind of applying it now.

Yeah, I think I have just always respected that every human has something to offer, and it doesn't really matter what position, what hierarchy, what tenure, what background, what field. Like, it doesn't really matter; it's that there is something to offer. So I don't think it has ever really been work for me to intentionally make sure that every voice at the table is heard, or all of those managerial strategies and tactics that are talked about in terms of building team cohesion or openness, or all of those things.

I don't know that I've ever actually given it much thought because I just see every person as having something to offer. And likewise, with all of our strengths come weaknesses too, but that's not a fail point; that's just an opportunity for someone else's strength to step into that. And I guess I've always just seen humans, like in community and you know, multidisciplinary, intentionally interdisciplinary teams as just the best of all the worlds. Of course, it goes sideways when we can't work together, but I come from the belief that no one field has the answer and that the answer is standing right in the middle of all of the fields, all put together.

And so for me, when I was looking at what blind spots we had and who, from what types of backgrounds, could fill those things? Well, then that was just natural to go that interdisciplinary route. Of course, as a special ed teacher, I'm used to sitting at the table with a whole bunch of different specialists. I've lived and worked abroad, and so I've come up against all kinds of different belief sets and ways of looking at the world and ways of interacting.

And I think for me it's just been finding what it is, and at the core of whatever that is, that either the person or the situation has to offer, and just honoring that. So I don't know that I have any fancy tricks or strategies, or like, here's my five-step plan to building a beautiful team culture. I think it's just that I've always just seen people and wanted to help them find that spot to fit in and really show up in whatever way it is for them that works, and then to make sure that we can do that in a cohesive way.

Matthew: Yeah. This is so good. I think that's the perfect answer to the question, right? Of like, unintentional intentionality.

Yeah, pretty much.

Matthew: I don't know if that makes sense. But like, literally two things that stood out to me are one: weakness isn't a fail point. I think that's a massive understatement. And then the second one: everyone has something to offer. And I think when we build organizations with that framework, it's people-centered. And that we're not scared to take risks, we're not scared to do what's right, we're not scared to take on a challenge.

Right? It leads to I was going to ask you another question, but you already answered it unintentionally again.

Which is, you know, because this culture, admittedly, is different than most organizations, like we've talked about already, right? And we also have some of the lowest turnover that I've seen in a company like this, right? So one of the things I was going to ask you is, why do you think people stay? But I think you answered that right? It's like, because we don't try to make them stay, right? We’re just building an environment that they want to stay in.

Right? You build an environment where they see themselves being valued, where they see that they're contributing, where their unique perspective is listened to. 

Yeah, I'm curious. Managing a team like this with so many moving pieces and just seeing its evolution over the journey, what have you noticed or what have you learned personally? How has your leadership style evolved and changed as your team has evolved and changed?

Yeah, I think as we've gotten bigger, for sure. It's been kind of twofold. One is we have some people who've been around since the beginning, like Flora, and we've got some people that, I mean, honestly, just joined our team this week. And so we've got everyone in between, and it has been a healthy reminder that culture is never static. With any shift, if that's just a life shift in people that have been around or the socio cultural moment that we're in shifting and then that impacts things or just someone new enters the team and is like, hey, I'm new here and I'm trying to figure out what this thing is, that culture is really just never static. It's constantly- 

It's a very real thing. And if it's not maintained, you just kind of slip in places that you don't want to go. And so I have noticed that in those seasons where I think, okay, cool, we've kind of hit our stride, we've got people that are kind of in their sweet spot and they're doing their thing, there are these little things that start to slip. And so it's just a reminder for me, like behavioral drift, right? It's just something that we need to be ever present, like ever aware of.

It doesn't have to be like constantly part of a conversation. And it's not like we're providing correction around these things, but it's just never taking it for granted that it is actually an effort to make sure that folks are aligned. And I think for me, I'm definitely a person that's like, okay, it's done, move on. And it's like, oh, nope, that's not- like this is not something that ever really gets that checkbox.

It's kind of temporary, okay, cool. But there's still that maintenance aspect that needs to happen in it. And I think one of the things, it might be a bit of a silly example, but we're in the season of kind of closing out this school year and planning for next school year. And part of that comes down to how we're communicating with each other, how we're organizing things, especially in that primarily remote teaming environment.

There are a lot of online tools that work in some ways and don't work in other ways. And everybody on the team has to be able to access, understand, and participate in these spaces. And what makes sense to me does not always make sense to other people. And so the number of times that I've been like, hey, I built this thing, please tell me how much this is horrible. Like, tell me how much this is confusing.

You know, does my brain translate to you in any way, shape, or form in the way that I think it is? 

Flora: You’re not kidding.

And I- say again? 

Flora: You're not kidding, yes. I've never, ever had someone ask me questions like that: So how is this not working? How is this not great? What could be better about this? It's quite impressive, I have to admit.

Oh gosh, I ask those questions all the time. I would much rather figure out what I haven't noticed long before we launch something, rather than launching it and then being like, oh, I could have told you that. Oh, I saw that coming. So, yes, I will absolutely ask, What am I not seeing here? How is this not going to work? Long before we actually make a decision to run with something.

But, yeah, I think those interactions have been so informative to me because it's not just me, it's literally everyone around me, and we are intentionally wildly different from each other, and we have different aptitudes with technology. You know, some people are totally cool, no problem. Other people are like, Oh, my gosh, if I could just do everything paper, pencil. I would mail you everything if I could.

So literally across the board. Yeah. I think, again, but it's knowing who is where, who has what skills, and being able to find something that works in the middle of it. Even, I mean, for the sake of the silly tech example, knowing that this person? I'm just going to need to drop a link to them, right? They're not going to find it. It's not going to happen. They're going to text me and be like, Where's this thing? And I'm going to say, here's your link, right? As opposed to being like, oh, my gosh, again, here we go.

Right? And that they're not left out, they're absolutely part of it, and that they are offering what they can offer. It's just, I don't know, I think it's just, again, it's: everybody has something to offer, and to not let any of these other things get in the way of that. I think for my leadership, it just makes me more intentional about how I am making sure that folks are actually positioned to be able to show up how they need to show up.

Matthew: Yeah. I think that piece you mentioned a little while back of being naturally kind of in this “check the box, let's move on” space, and then having to learn to kind of grow, I won't say out of it, but to grow a heightened level of awareness around leading a team and an organization, right? I think it's really easy to check a box when it's just you, right? Then, as you start having more dynamics in play, you start learning the value of paying attention to small details.

So I'm curious for the listener right now who's maybe in that transition, right? And maybe they have a team kind of forming up, and they're kind of looking at the parallels between their organization and what they're tracking through the AMA series here with us. And they're like, oh, snap. I feel seen, right? Like that’s me right now. I'm definitely in that checkbox mentality, but I know that I need to start paying more attention.

Were there any little things that you did that really helped you there to start making that mental shift?

I think one of- I know a difference, right? When I'm doing the work versus when I'm helping other people do the work, I show up differently. So when I'm the one doing the work, I am expected to be the expert in the room, to bring that expertise, and to kind of have that “this is the right direction" type of dynamic, not like, directive, but just being able to show up in more of that competence.

But when I'm helping other people do the work, it's a completely different dynamic. I think it's very healthy and appropriate to approach it with a ton of humility. I tend to assume that I am not seeing it the way that other people are seeing it. And whatever I think is right is probably partially right because collectively that's going to be what is actually right. And so I just kind of put aside the, you know, I've done the research, this is the direction we're going. Here's where we're headed.

And instead, it's more like, okay, so I've done the research. This is where I think we're headed. Can you check me and kind of engage in that collaborative process? It's just a different style of leadership. Not to say that I'm not highly collaborative when I'm doing my consultant work as well. But it is different when I'm in the room because I am expected to lead in that capacity, versus when I'm in the room because I am facilitating other people to lead in their spaces.

There are a lot of similarities, but how I show up as a leader is just different.

Matthew: That's so huge. That reminds me of one of the things that my mentor taught me a couple of years back. He said you have to first know your role and then own your role. And it's important to know what I am called for in this setting, in this scenario, in this space, and then owning that fully, whatever that is, right? And but first I got to know my role and then own that role, right? So I think that awareness that I need to be adaptable and not everything is the same is huge.

To be able to say, okay, maybe sometimes the checkbox is important, right? When I am the expert, I do need to bring that level of confidence. But other times, maybe grace is valuable too, right? And I can hold space for somebody else and help guide them. So, really great response there, I love that. And I know that you put so many things in play for your team to really start developing this culture. It didn't come out of nowhere. Like you said, it's not an overnight, accidental thing.

It's taken intention, it's taken thought process. It's taken nights of losing sleep and really caring about your people and your team, of what they need. So I know you've put together all kinds of different things from hybrid socials to in-person retreats, to all types of different- So talk to that for a minute, kind of your thought process around that, and putting things together, and kind of how you even approach that.

Yeah, I mean, on a week-to-week basis, we have what we call the agility test, right? It's just like, how agile are you at the moment? And sometimes it's not at all, and other times it's like, yeah, I'm good, I can take on more if you've got more for me. But it's an honest, open-ended ask for how are you, what are you working on, what's coming up, anything getting in the way? It's also a really good check for me if there's anything that I need to do to make people's lives easier, so that they can show up in the ways that they need to show up and that they want to show up.

But that's just a week-to-week, genuine open call. And so it's a private response. It only goes into our core team. But it is for the sole purpose of checking in on every single person who's got any hours or even no hours with us at the moment. And then we started doing quarterly online socials. So at this point our team is coast to coast across the US, and so meeting up locally, as awesome as that would be, would- I don't know that many people could even get into one place at any given time because of how stretched we are across the country.

And so we started doing just online socials, and we've done a whole bunch of different things from random 30-second check-ins with folks, silly icebreakers, motivational kind of vision casting things of like what are you dreaming? What if you could do something that would just fuel you? What would it be? What types of things are you finding yourself drawn to?

And then I mean, we've done some informational things too. Different people have shared different pieces of information of just what they're noticing. So the online social is intentionally kind of low-key but also very collaborative. It's not just a sit-and-get for an hour, 90 minutes, or whatever of a company update, something that you know, in my opinion, could have been a memo, right? If we're going to be in the room together, we may as well be in that room together as much as possible.

And then yeah, we were able to launch annual retreats, and folks come in from all over the country. We're located out of the Chicagoland area, and so different venues over the years, but it's always been kind of a hybrid approach to how we leverage that time together. There's some that's more business and kind of checking the boxes on some things that people need to make sure they have access to technology, that we understand how we communicate with each other, and kind of setting some of those foundational ground rules, and accessibility for everybody involved.

But then there's also an aspect of teaming, like who are we, why are we here, what are we actually doing? How do we fit together? And really walk that out together. And that is just different in the room compared to online. I don't think I have any persuasions in terms of better or worse or right or wrong. It's just simply different. How we can team in an online space serves its purpose, and how we can team in a physical place serves its purpose too.

And then it is way easier in person to just go hang out. That is something that we have not been able to replicate in a virtual space as easily. We've done co-working sessions, we'll just pop up hours if we know different folks are going to be online, and they can just work and have somebody there working with them. But in that kind of face-to-face space where you can just simply spend time together and ask those questions that feel kind of awkward when you're at a screen and you're feeling like you should be working, and now you're asking, like, how's life? Type of questions.

And it just happens so naturally. And so that's one of my favorite parts of the retreat because there is something incredibly powerful about our team in one place. It rarely ever happens, but every single time somebody is like, Heather, these people are awesome. Where are they even coming from? And like, how am I in this room with these people, right? And so it's just an incredibly powerful moment that I'm always like, Are you coming this year? Can you make it? Not because I'm like, the boss trying to mandate some corporate retreat or something, but it is genuinely so that folks can get in the room and they can actually have that shoulder-to-shoulder time that they can really see each other for who they are.

And it makes it so much easier to then collaborate remotely. You don't feel as awkward or uncomfortable texting or chatting with someone after you've sat down and just hung out with them for a little bit, too. So I don't know if that's what you're asking or kind of the question you were driving at, but it's not one thing. It's truly just a series of different things and different approaches have spoken to different people at different times. And we've also changed our approach over the years as well, and kind of mixed it up depending on the people and the types of needs that are coming up in any season.

But yeah, I think it's just creating that time and choosing to hold some intentionality behind the time and leveraging it to be a much more collaborative time to the maximum extent possible.

Flora: I think that the weekly check-ins that you had started off talking about are a huge thing that is very different compared to a lot of other places. I know that when people have big life events happening, they can put them in there, and then we have a couple of people who can check in with them and make sure they're doing okay or see if they need any help. And that definitely is a huge part of our culture of like, hey, we see you. We want to make sure you're doing okay. We want to offer you any assistance. We know you might be a little behind on work.

Is there anything we can do to help, or anyone we know who can pick it up, or anything like that? And that's big and it's different and it's definitely a very important part of our culture. And I think one of the reasons why everybody feels so seen by you, by the rest of our team, is that it's really nice to be struggling with something. And I mean, the people you work with are like, hey, just checking in. How are you doing? That's just, that's- There's something about that that's amazing.

Yeah, that's something that some of our, I guess maybe more veteran folks, as they're getting to know some of the newer team members, and I don't- I'm not in these conversations. I wish I were, but I understand that, like most company dynamics, maybe the boss is a little sheltered from the actual team dynamics. And so our new folks are going to our veteran folks with just the normal concerns, like, I don't know where this thing is, or I can't remember when this thing is due, or just normal, trying-to-do-work types of questions.

But they're going to each other because they're afraid to say anything to me, or if there's someone else who's in charge of that project or something. And I have loved the stories of our veteran folks coming back to me and being like, hey, just so you know, so and so's still freaking out because they haven't figured out how we do stuff here. And it's like, no, you can actually reach out. I know, Flora, you and I have brought in some extra help behind the scenes and you and I were very intentional with how we positioned ourselves so that they would feel like they could actually come to me by starting to be comfortable with you and then you kind of modeling for them, Hey, look, I can ask Heather a question and it's totally cool. You can ask her too.

But yeah, we've just been very intentional about that, and that's- I take it for granted because it's just how I see it. But I know that over the years, I've had lots of people be like, Hey, Heather, that's not normal. Like, just so you know, like, there's- So yes.

 Flora: That's great. This has been a really, really great conversation. I think it would be really cool to go into depth more on lots of behind-the-scenes things, but we don't have time for that, so we'll probably have to do that in our next episode. Would you come back and help us with that, Matthew?

Matthew: Absolutely.

Flora: All right, cool. So then we'll have you guys come back and stick around, and we'll talk a little bit about behind the scenes at TLC.

Sounds good. See you then.