Fuel + Fire

Flora:All right. So we're back for another episode of our summer series, Ask Me Anything. I'm Flora. I've been with TLC since the beginning, so I know what's going on around here, what's been going on. And Cass is back.

Cass:Hey, I'm Cass o' Hara. I am a current BCBA trainee. I'm also a teacher with one of our nonprofit district partners, and I happen to be partnering with the nonprofit for some dreaming for the next school year.

Flora:And we're really happy to have you back. And the last time you were here, we had a really good discussion. We were talking about some of the needs that TLC addresses. And I kind of want to start there, Heather, and ask you, how are you personally connected to the needs that TLC has been addressing?

Yeah, I think. I think I shared even back, like, maybe episode two or just, like. I think it's just how I'm built. Like, it's. See, you need me to need. Right? I'm not okay with, you know, people being overlooked or tossed to the side. I think that there is a lot of genuine benefit that every person, no matter how much or how little it may be quantified by, you know, tools or metrics, or other people's perspectives. I think what they do have is valid and absolutely serves a purpose. And so I think anything that we can do to position those parts of people to be able to show up and really, like, pour into that with them, I'm totally here for it.

And that's not just our students. It's our staff. It's our communities. Right. Like, in the midst of things that seem like it's so impossible, that there are too many, you know, big obstacles or barriers, there is a lot of beauty in it. Right. And I think, like, colloquially, what do you say, like, the silver lining piece. Right. But it's not a platitude. Like, it genuinely is. Like, there is some good, genuine, very real stuff tucked in the middle of some really big, ugly, hard stuff.

And that's where I don't. I don't. I'm not scared to buy the big, ugly, hard stuff. It's in that big, ugly, hard stuff that you find, you know, those really amazing pieces that serve more, do more, speak louder, stronger than, you know, just the tough stuff that's maybe burying it at the moment. So I think for me, anything that does that, anything that gives those parts of people or communities the opportunity to really step in, like, I'm here for it, kind of like. And that's where, you know, even conversations with Matthew the past couple of episodes, right? Like, we've pivoted and shown up in a bunch of different ways, you know, organizationally, operationally.

But at the end of the day, it's. It's so that every single human, in their own ways, can show up. Yeah.

Flora:And we've talked about, too, how you've been very good at being able to find people with similar goals, and that just makes this team even more awesome.

Oh, yeah, I'm picky.

Cass:So. So what really fires you up? Right? This is. This is. It's a. It's a lot to look at. Every situation. We talked about this in a previous episode, but every situation calls for a different kind of matchup, right? Everything is going to look a little bit different because those needs are always going to look a little bit different. And so what? You know, I think a lot of companies can also come in and say, hey, I. This is our business plan. This is what we follow. This is how things work.

Right? You're going to take steps 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, just like the last company we worked with. Step 1, 2, 3, 4. Right. You don't do that. So when you come into a situation and you go to meet a need, you are scrapping whatever plan you might have, and you say, Okay, these are the resources I have. This is a need that's there. So I'm starting again, essentially from the ground up each and every single time.

So how the heck do you do that and find that fire to say, okay, we have helped that place, or we're still helping that place? They're moving along. I'm starting over again in this new opportunity. So how do you find that push?

Yeah, I don't see it as starting over. I see it as, you know, just a new context, a new scenario, a new situation, like, with new people, new perspectives. And with that, new constraints, new barriers, and new opportunities like, they're going to bring different strengths to the table that other people didn't. And so to me, it's not starting over. It really is just what do we have? Could we have? Have we done, could we do that will meet those outcomes and, you know, move their local efforts forward again, like as a district or as a practitioner, it doesn't really matter to me.

But yes, like, we don't have a rinse and repeat model. I think about anything that we do. If it's from, like, our aspiring BCBAs trying to get their clinical hours, you know, no two trainees' journeys, even just with our team, have looked the same. But it's, you know, providing the variety of opportunities that would meet those needs, to be able to step in in ways that are meaningful to them. But I think, I mean, like, Cass, you're one of our trainees.

My background is in behavior analysis. I did a couple of years with a research group focused specifically on contextual behavior analysis that you cannot analyze behavior outside of the context. And I think that just sat with me. It made so much sense to me because everybody says, you know, when you're building an organization, when you're building a system, or when you're building a therapeutic, you know, intervention plan or whatever, it's like there's this science, there's this cold, regimented, you know, way to do it. And it's, you know, all this, like, be the cold observer, like, have no impact on the environment. And all this stuff that you hear, if it's through my doc work and, you know, quantitative, qualitative, you know, data collection and analysis and all that, making sure that as the researcher or the observer, you're not impacting the data set you're collecting. Right. Well, the reality is, like, you do, right? All of us are the context in which decisions are being made.

And so I don't see our ability to analyze anything outside of the full context in which it is situated. And so for me, looking at kind of like, are we really starting over? No, it's looking at the context, quantifying out what it is, what isn't it, what's needed, what are those opportunities? Because there are some things that could be a perfect fit, but based on the context, it is not going to be a fit.

And so then, figuring out, okay, so then what's the angle on still getting, you know, that outcome, still moving in that direction, but doing it in a way that is actually going to sit with people so that the work can actually happen. So, yeah, I don't see it as starting over. I don't even really see it as pivoting. It's more, you know, why I love mission-driven work and that, you know, through a nonprofit sector or through, you know, business space, doesn't really matter to me. But at the end of the day, like, what, why are we showing up? What are we doing?

Like, that's the answer. We don't need, you know, a pretty box to live in. Or here's the, you know, five-step process to do this. Whatever. Like, sure, we have structures and frameworks that we absolutely adhere to, and there are processes that we follow to make sure that it is done with good fidelity, and like, you know, really, you know, sound practice. But we do it in such a way that there is absolute room for the context to show up and guide how those processes and how those procedures, like how it actually happens.

But yeah, that's just because I don't, I don't see anything in a vacuum. I don't think life is, I don't think, you know, humans are, you know, even when we're by ourselves, we're still influenced, surrounded by, and get the opportunity to influence, you know, the context that we're in.

Flora: And as someone who's completely outside of this field, everything I know about this field I've learned from working at TLC. So you're obviously, you've been in this field a while, and you are still in it. And so what? What do you love about it? What, what, what do you love about it? Because you're still here.

So, yeah, I mean, I think I've said it in like a couple of these conversations. Like, even if the funding vaporizes, the humans aren't right. And there is just something beautiful about, like, a captive audience. I mean, I started my career in corrections. And that's the end of the line, right? A lot of what they're doing is trying to get out of corrections so that they can reintegrate and, you know, make other choices going forward in their life. Right?

And so I wanted to catch them before the end of the line. And then I'm finding, you know, even starting as a behavior analyst, I'm starting in a therapeutic setting. And I'm like, man, I want to catch him before that decision is made. Because once you've crossed over, that's really hard to cross back. And so for me, the opportunities that exist in public ed are, I mean, so just like they're right there, right? And so I get really frustrated when people kind of create these, you know, reasons or rationales on why it's too messy, it's too hard, it's too unpredictable, too uncontrolled, it's too Little resource, too, whatever, right? Like, all these barriers that people are like. So you can't actually, especially, I mean, Cass, like, think the behavior analysis community, right? Like, there are folks who are like, you can't actually do that in that space. And I'm like, but you've got so many kids and communities and staff that need it. Like, and they're just sitting here. They like, as long as we have the mandate for a free, appropriate public education, the kids are going to show up, and you've got to serve them, right? So for me, until that's gone, I don't think there's any reason not to be here, right? Like, it can be harder. There can be more barriers. It can be, you know, more. More difficult to show up and to serve more fully, or to do it to the extent that we wish that we could.

At the end of the day, like, the kids are still here, the kids still have needs. The system still exists in some capacity to try to meet a variety of different needs. So why not?

Cass:It just as I'm listening to you talk about this, I. I hear you saying, okay, let's talk about it in a sense of like a graph, if you will. All right, so bear with me as we picture this in all of our minds, listeners included. But when we have a graph, we have different points on that. That graph, and we go along, we're going to have what we call those outliers, right? And that's natural in any sort of graphing situation. We're going to have outliers.

And it sounds almost as if you have become this. And unintentionally, genuinely, I think it's not on purpose, but I think you have become almost this caregiver to the outliers. And with the perspective of, well, if there's this many people standing on the outside, then they're not really outliers to begin with. Right? It's just that we didn't have the right setup to match what they needed. So I'm going to do whatever I can in my power to lead people or a group of people or facilitate how we can give care, true care, to maybe even the people that people have given up on, and find the ways to do that and meet those needs. And reach out to them, which is quite beautiful.

The flip side of that is, though, how many roadblocks have you experienced just with people being like, oh, well, he. The prognosis is grim. So we just. We're not. I bother, you know, and so how many times have you kind of hit these Moments where, gosh, it probably feels insurmountable. Where it's like, I see this kid, I know they have a need. Let's go with correctional facilities. Right? I see this kid, and I know they have a need. Why are we not meeting that?

And you have somebody who says, Hey, I'm going to stand in your way because this is just a no, that this isn't. This isn't going to happen. Do you face that a lot? And if so, how have you, or can you, overcome that?

Yeah, there are a couple of different directions that I'm thinking about as you're asking that question. I think the easiest one for me is, you know, like, if someone's just, you know, they, they schedule a call with me because they just want the product pitch and they want to see if, you know, they have the budget to spend on whatever it is that we're offering. And then they genuinely cannot engage in the conversation around, well, what are you trying to do? Right, like, what, what are you trying to get out of this? Like, what are your outcomes? If that's a district practitioner, I don't care.

But if they're just like, nope, just doing my, you know, market research here, it's a barrier. Like, we're not going to partner well together. But it is also a really kind of clean, closed door for the moment, where I'll leave it as open as possible, but we're probably just not a fit. Right. Because I don't have that clean answer for you. Right. But I think at the end of the day, when we are just simply trying to serve people like, the outcomes are trying to happen.

Outlier. Yes. Like, our team is a team of outliers. We serve students who are outliers, typically being served by staff who themselves, in their own professional communities, are outliers. I think there's a really beautiful framing about, yeah, we're just a team of outliers serving outliers who are serving outliers. Right. Like, that's, that's just reality. But a lot of those barriers are not always actually barriers.

It's just that's not how we've always done it before. Or, oh, I didn't think about it that way. Or I don't know why that isn't actually possible. So it's, to me, never really been, you know, here's all of the barriers. Like, yeah, are there definitely barriers that we come into? For sure. But like I kind of said earlier is, like, we partner really well with people who are like, I know that I don't know everything. And I'm trying to figure some stuff out.

And at that point, then a barrier isn't just a barrier. It's okay, but does it have to be a barrier? And what are those angles? What are those opportunities? What are the other directions? Right. And I am an absolute rule follower. Like, if there are bounds to stay within, I will not cross out of those bounds. I will challenge those bounds. Like, do they need to be there? And if they do, for whatever reason, even if I completely disagree with that reason, I will still live within those bounds.

But that doesn't change the outcome. Right. Like, the outcome is still there, and we're still going in that direction, but that's just not going to be the way that we go. Right. Because there's that. That boundary, that barrier that, you know, whatever that we're not going to be able to affect. And so you still keep going. Right. Like, find the other, find the other angle, find the other direction. So for me, barriers, it hasn't been full stops.

It's actually opened up really cool opportunities that we wouldn't have found if it were just that; that's the barrier, full stop. It's okay. Is that a barrier? Okay, that is a barrier. Great. So now what other angles could we try or challenge the barrier and realize, oh, that's not actually a barrier. Oh, interesting. Like, okay, here's what really is at the core of it. So we could actually do this.

But this is the underlying piece where that barrier came from. And that's what we need to honor and respect as part of our, like, you know, solution-seeking and how we can get that outcome to. To start moving. So, yeah, I don't know. There are lots of barriers, like innumerable barriers on all levels. Right. Like we've said multiple times like, we work with complex people. Like, people in and of themselves are complex.

And then the students that we tend to work with the most are the most, you know, hodgepodge connection, you know, combinations of these, these needs. And so it is complex. And then the systems in which they are situated, trying to get those supports is also a very complex system with all kinds of different, you know, processes and parameters that you have to, you know, navigate and live within or, you know, challenge up against and see what needs to stick. But like, all of that, I think, is what comes together for me. Like, it makes it fun.

And that's where it's not just, you know, rinse and repeat. I actually get pretty bored with that. But we can still do, do good work and keep moving. In those useful, meaningful directions, in those partnerships with a practitioner, with that district, given everything that's going on, kind of regardless of what those, you know, barriers may or may not be.

Cass: So is there anything that you come across where it's. It's. Because it sounds like you're like, a challenge. Excellent. Do you like puzzles?

I think. I think I've always been drawn to figuring things out. So if that's logic, puzzle, the way that things work, you know, whatever. Yeah, exactly. Like, I have always been like, but why? But why? And not in, like, a mean way, but in a very curious way.

Cass:Yeah.

Help me understand how you see this.

Cass:Yeah. How do I peel back the layers and figure out, like, where it is that this works and triggers this and goes this way and that way and.

Flora, you've seen me ask questions.

Flora: I was gonna say, I've known you a long time. And yes, the. But why is it always like, and? And I'm not used to that. So sometimes I'll be talking about something you're like, but what? Like, let's get into this. And I'm, like, taking it back.

Cass:Like, what?

Flora: Okay. Yeah, let's. Let's get to the root and figure it out. Yeah.

Yeah. Because it is. It's just a genuine curiosity. Right. Because sometimes what it is isn't actually what it is. And if it is, then great, we'll honor that move on. But if not, then let's figure out the part that we do need to honor, and then that opens up now previous barriers that are now opportunities.