This week, we're talking about high-leverage practice number five, interpreting and communicating assessment information to collaboratively design and implement educational programs. Lathyrelle, I know you have done this for the student level and the program level, and especially within Project Onward, you've been doing a lot of program development work. So, for you, what does this practice look like?

Lathyrelle: For me, it's one of the things that you have to work with your whole team because you have different people that have specialties, even with it being it could be somebody that's a school psychologist or working with somebody that is a special education teacher or general education teacher, and somebody that knows this student very well, like a parent or caregiver. And then you also have the student who knows himself best.

So it's very important for everybody to work together and use that information to, you know, build a new or very effective program with that, all that information. On top of that, you also need to look at your assessments, because those assessments actually look at very particular information, and they provide very concrete data for you to build upon the information for the student to do what's best for them.

So the best thing to do is have all the members of the team together, as well as have those people who are experts in each of those areas. So when you're interpreting that assessment, you want to make sure that everybody's on the same page. You want to make sure that everyone can understand the language. A lot of times, assessments use a lot of specialized language for that particular area, and we want to make sure everybody understands what that means. And so you have to break it down for everyone.

Remember, some of your families, some of your students, some of your other professionals may not have ever heard some of the terms you're using. So you have to make sure that everybody understands what you're talking about, even if you need to go ahead and use all the technical language, because you just have to get out of the system, which I usually have to do. I then circle back and explain it again for someone who may not know what I just said.

So I think it's very important that you have someone who knows how to interpret the assessments and communicate them so that everyone is on the same page, and then we can move forward. We're trying to design and implement an effective educational program for the student.

Well, I know you live in the world of a bunch of heavy tools that have lots of technical jargon, and you're also in the world of kind of interpreting those things to figure out what to do with programming. So I'm curious for you, I know when you write your reports, they're very technical, but when you're communicating them with people, it's so common and it's so easy to understand what you're sharing versus what you've written.

I'm curious, like, how do you do that? How do you kind of shift from that technical writing to that more like common spoken, that presentation experience?

Lathyrelle: Experience from that. I mean, I went into school psych not really knowing anything about testing. So it took a little bit of time and asking questions as well as, you know, looking to the experts to, hey, can you explain this to me? I don't know what this means. I don't know that jargon. I came from emotional health. So there's a, you know, there's a little bit of disconnect. The other thing is you listen to the people that you work with, the families that you work with, the children, students and teachers that you work with, because those questions that they're asking you to explain, to clarify, those are some common questions that people have that they may not feel comfortable with asking or even know how to ask.

There's a saying that goes, You don't know what you don't know. So it's hard for people to understand something when they really don't even know where to start to tell you. I don't understand. They just know I don't understand it. And so I try to explain it to where, when I first came into school psych, what I did not understand, what language did I not understand? So I kind of take it from that perspective.

I also kind of, you know, if I'm face-to-face with someone, I definitely try to look at the facial cues because that will show if they are very much understanding what you're saying and what you're not. A lot of times I'll explain one section and just kind of read it off and then come back and say, you have any questions and you can kind of see them kind of flipping through the pages and kind of, you know, got that look on their face and you go, wait, okay, is there something that you don't understand?

Let me explain to you better. What does that look like in everyday life? Because that's something that will help someone when you're trying to explain things. There's one thing to be able to say: this child doesn't know how to interpret or how to read certain paragraphs to comprehend. It's another thing of what does that look like? So, were you able to explain that to someone in everyday terms, and something that they might see in that house or in the classroom?

It makes it easier to make that connection between what I just said, the jargon that I use, as well as what they see in the classroom or at home. So that's the kind of perspective that I take when it comes to explaining things like what I would ask if I didn't really understand.

Yeah. And I think as I'm listening to you share this, I think I'm being struck by just the level of kind of like emotional intelligence that you need to have while you're providing all this technical. You're also observing, being aware of either their body language and what they're communicating to you, or being able to kind of walk in their shoes while you're having to hold that professional role.

So I'm, I don't, I just, I, I really appreciate that perspective because I think sometimes as professionals in those, you know, tables, yeah, sure, we've got our data and we're making sure that, you know, we're communicating it. But we're so stuck in our field and our jargon and our way of, you know, how this fits and how this makes sense to us. I know I've worked with families where sometimes they feel like they're being almost like a burden, and they're like, I'm sorry for slowing you down, but I don't really understand anything you just said, you know, like to be able to walk that. And I think for you, you were even sharing like you're asking those questions. And there is an aspect of, I don't know if it's humility or just like, maybe professionally, it's almost like a self-confidence thing of like, I'm okay to not know everything because when I identify what I don't know, then I can ask and learn. And that gives me the opportunity to grow and do the same thing for my family as well. So I'm curious for you as a professional, like, how do you, I guess, how do you make yourself feel okay with? I know I don't know everything.

And so, therefore, I'm going to ask those questions. And I'm probably asking similar questions to what my family is going to be asking too.

Lathyrelle: Well, I'm a lifelong learner. I like to learn things. It keeps it interesting for me. So one of the things I like to do is watch and observe people in their expertise area. So when someone is explaining something to me, I'm intrigued because you can see how the energy changes when they are explaining something that's true to their heart. And to me, that's exciting. For me, because I'm like, oh, I'm getting the best stuff ever, then I'm going to learn from that person.

So for me, it's not about being comfortable. It's about what I want to learn; I want to know. It's just another piece of information that's going to help me build my knowledge about pretty much everything that's going to help me do my job. And so that's the approach that I take. There is some shyness I still have initially, but once that person opens up and they start talking to me about it, I'm like, I'm all in.

I want to ask those questions. I want to know. I'm not asking questions to, you know, question whether you are an authority or expert in what you know. I want to know what you know. I want to know the things of how you do things in your world. And I feel like for me, that just helps me as a professional. It helps me give better insight to people. It helps me give a better perspective on how other people think.

Because I mean, I have been exposed to certain things just because of where I'm from, how I grew up, just being exposed to different levels of education. There's that piece that you have to keep that inquisitive part of you going. And so I feel like when you're working with people in different departments in different areas, working with parents and working with families, I think it makes everyone comfortable knowing that even as the expert in your field that you don't know everything and that you have to ask questions. And I think it makes other people feel comfortable that they see the quote-unquote expert asking questions of someone else.

So, so it's a lot of different moving pieces and stuff like that. Some things are personal, some things are professional. But again, like you said, you know, I've been in that position where I didn't know, and I had to ask questions. So I know how that feels. I don't want to put that on anybody else. And then, you know, if it's a parent or caregiver that's asking that question, I want them to be comfortable. I want them to be. To ask questions. And usually if I end a meeting out, the last thing I want, one of the last things I say is, You have any more questions? Are you sure?

But if you do, just email me. Because, you know, sometimes you get in the car, you get home, or two days later, you're like, I should have asked them about this, or you reread something, it still doesn't make sense. It made sense then, but now, if you still can't pull it back out. So, you know, I always make sure that they're available to ask me questions. And, you know, you also building that parent or caregiver confidence up for their child when they get, you know, as a child, go through the IEP process or program to be able to advocate for their child, because that's the main thing you want them to do is advocate with an understanding of what they're advocating for.

So that's kind of the perspective I take.

Yeah, for sure. And I think you're, you're really hinting at so many different things as you're just like, well, obviously this makes so much sense. Like you, you just, you know, your stuff, you learn more stuff along the way, and then you communicate it in a way that you can kind of read people to know if it's sticking, and make yourself available. So when they, you know, have questions they can, they can follow back on that.

And it sounds like in, and I know it from your practice too, like, it's just how you operate. So I'm curious if you've ever been in any situations where maybe people thought that that's what they were doing, but you're kind of watching that communication and you're like, I don't think anyone understands what you actually just said. Or they're not maybe presenting it in a way that's like, collaborative, so that it's like, here's my piece, here's this information, and I'm moving on with, you know, my life as opposed to really then integrating it into, you know, the planning around either a student or a program.

So I'm curious, have you had any situations where you've either watched or been part of someone thinking that they were maybe demonstrating this high-leverage practice, but they were kind of missing the mark?

Lathyrelle: Uh, yes, I've been in that position a few times. Again, you have to kind of look at that person's personality, their professionalism, and things like that, and just how their mindset is. Some people know, unfortunately, the ego gets in the way. And sometimes, you know, when that happens, it becomes, I'm the expert. It's what I say. This is how I do it. And that's fine. I'm glad that you're an expert. But if you are turning people off or away because of how you present something, that's not helping anyone and you're going to get more people kind of pushing back at you, or not being compliant, or not being compliant behind your back, which is even worse because you're thinking that, you know, things are happening and it's not and you don't develop that relationship.

So it's a lot of relationship building, working around personalities that you also have to kind of critique yourself. Did I do the right thing? Am I reading people? And if you're one of those people who can't really read the room, that's when you go to your colleagues and your other professionals and say, Did that make sense? Do I need to clarify anything? And there's nothing wrong with, you know, following up on an email. I had someone do that where they were like, Well, the room didn't feel right when I left.

That's the only thing they said to me. I was like, Oh, they opened it up a little bit. And they sent an email out just kind of clarifying what they talked about. In the situation, that person really started to have some insight into how they presented things, but in some cases, it doesn't happen. So as long to me, as long as it's somebody that a parent, caregiver, teacher feels comfortable coming to, to ask questions and things like that, I think that, you know, it helps the whole team.

And then you just have to have a conversation sometimes with that person. If they're receptive to it, that's great. If not, you just have to, you know, take it with a grain of salt and know what you need to do the next time this person presents, you know, take your notes. And then if you have to, you have to just follow old people to make sure if anybody has any questions, you just have to know how to do, you know, everybody's personality and how they present things.

Well, the last part I want to make sure we hit on before we sign off for today is how do we know if we've got all these different people with all this different information, and we're trying to pull it together? I mean, I've been in the room sometimes where someone's presenting information and drawing a conclusion from that data, and I'm kind of conflicted of going like, I don't know that that's what that says.

So I'm curious for you, do you have any strategies for just making sure that the, like, the interpretation is actually in alignment with whatever it is that I am bringing to the table? Right. We talk about the tools and communicating that well, you know, when we are at the table, so that we can collaborate effectively. But do you have any hints on, like, how to make sure that our even analysis is more locked into really what those needs of the students are?

Lathyrelle: Well, I think it's. You have to really, again, listen to the whole team. There's data, and then how do you apply that data? So when you're interpreting things, and even if it's somebody that's saying, this is what it is, this is how it should be, and this is the way you know what the data is saying, there's a realism behind that. And you have to be, you have to understand that yes, your child in a silo will be able to do these things based on the data.

However, in a classroom with 15 kids, 10 kids, you know, 10 kids, and everybody has their own behaviors, it's going to be difficult for that person. So what's the realism behind it? And I think there has to be a question that needs to be, you know, asked in the classroom. Yes, we can have this beautiful IEP, this beautiful programming, but how do we really work with the student and give them the things that they need on a daily basis in a very realistic manner? Yes, the data says this, but how do we implement this realistically? If you have something that's like an in home program, or you want a parent to complete something at home, if they got five other siblings, mom works, or dad works at night, or there's no extended family, mom, you know, the parents get home, or the caregiver's getting home at 10 o', clock, we can't realistically say, okay, sit down and do homework.

These kids probably should be asleep, you know, so what? What kind of workarounds do we have? What other avenues do we have to work with them? Is something like an after-school program that we could use. So we have to explore different avenues. We have to be realistic about what the child needs, as well as what the data is saying that the child needs. And how do we find a compromise for that? So again, you just have to like, make sure you have your listening ears on, and you have to think outside the box in order to do the right thing.

Yeah. Thank you for bringing forward context. Right. Like, I think sometimes we can get so stuck in the weeds on the tools and then making sure that we run the right tools to collect the right data to say the right things, that sometimes we forget to analyze it within the context. Right. Like, so what is actually going on in that classroom? What is actually going on in that, you know, student's life, home life, all the things. Right.

And then are we able to bring that into how we are planning for, you know, what that kid needs, what that classroom or that program needs? So thank you for always, always being mindful of that. I know you think like you just operate within that, in that reality, without even thinking about it. So thank you for making sure you toss that in here at the end.

Yeah, thank you so much. I know this is a really, really big one. This conversation could go on much longer than what we're doing today, just because there are so many little bits and pieces that are actually quite large players. So that's what the back half of this episode is for. If you're curious for more, keep listening to the technical side. But yes, thank you for your time today, Lathyrelle.