So this week, we are talking about High-Leverage Practice #15: providing scaffolded supports. And Marla, for you, in the Life Skills population, there are so many things that go well beyond just instruction that can also catch the behavioral momentum to really help our students get through things. So, for you and your practice, what does this look like?

It can look different for many of our students. I think when we, when I think of scaffolding, and you know that's something that I think is a term that I've heard more in education than as a BCBA working in a home or a clinic. But we do it, we just perhaps call it different, but essentially like scaffolding. For me, I just look at it as how are we providing the supports for this student? I think we really start with what a student is capable of doing in that moment? Like, what skills are they lacking? What skills or supports are helping them in that moment, and where can we go from there? So I think it just depends on every student. 

But sometimes I see this as like a picture sequence strip, right? I think of my life skills, my post-secondary students, where we're working on things like teeth brushing, toileting, doing laundry, things like that. What are we doing for them to achieve success? So that way, they can be doing the skill independently. And so I think of that, like, there's a picture sequence strip that we have of a student that we're currently working with, holding a toothbrush and brushing his teeth. We have another student where we're doing that with laundry. So it's different types of skills.

We also use it with specific prompts. So, we used to have a student, right now that we're teaching him how to use his device because he didn't really have a functional way to communicate. And so we were using a kind of scaffolding through errorless learning. Like, right now, this is a step we're going to do. We're going to go ahead and reinforce as soon as we prompt him to hit the word ‘no’ or ‘yes,’ and then we're going to build it from there. So I think it kind of looks different for the students that you're working with. I also think when I hear the word scaffolding, I also think of a task analysis of how you are breaking the skill down in a smaller way so that the student is going to achieve success. And then you build from there, and you shape their behavior until they're able to exhibit that behavior independently and appropriately. But that's kind of where my mind goes when I think of scaffolding.

Oh, for sure. And I think you threw out the word errorless learning. So I want to circle back on that for a second because I think that's a behavior analysis word that isn't always an education word. So walk me through. What is errorless learning? How does that work?

So, errorless learning, in layman's terms, is that there's no chance for the student to exhibit an incorrect behavior because you're giving that prompt immediately, and then you're fading that prompt throughout. So you kind of start with the most intrusive prompt, and then you kind of fade out to the least intrusive prompt until they're able to exhibit that skill independently. So, for the example that I said just a few minutes ago about a student, he didn't really have a way to communicate other than through his behaviors, which weren't functional and weren't safe. We said, okay, we're going to teach him how to tolerate the device and then teach him how to say no, because essentially, he didn't really want us in his space, and his way of communicating was by pushing us away.

So errorless learning. I propose that, okay, we're going to teach him how to say no on his device through errorless learning. So what does that mean is that you're going to go in there near his space, he's perhaps already exhibiting some type of localization, and you're going to go ahead and prompt him to say the word no, and then you back off, and then you wait for maybe five minutes and then you go back again, and then you do the same thing until eventually, like, there's a specific criteria that we have, and then we move up to the next step. So that's kind of what errorless learning is. Again, just to kind of quickly summarize it, it's just basically, you're providing prompts immediately, and there's no room for error for the student to exhibit because you're providing that immediate support.

And I think the really cool way about how you're breaking that down is you hinted at there's prompting that goes with that. And so there's a prompting hierarchy, and you're shifting the types of prompts as that's happening. But the whole goal, regardless of what type of prompt, I'm literally trying to get that to happen perfectly so that we can establish that learning. And then we start fading out those supports, which are part of scaffolding. Like, we're providing exactly how much help that each student needs at that moment for that thing, but not forever and ever amen. Literally for that moment for learning to happen. And then we back out those scaffolds kind of as quickly as the kid can handle it.

Correct. And that's where data is important when you are going to make that decision. Like, okay, I think we're ready to move up, or we're ready to fade this prompt out. And so for this specific case, we started with errorless learning where we're giving him that immediate prompt. And so after a week of collecting data, we saw that he was exhibiting that skill with no issues at above 80%. So we're like, okay, we can go ahead and start moving it to where we were delaying our prompts to maybe like five seconds. And so we did that. And then every week when we would collect data, depending on the data, as a team, we would make that decision. Like, okay, I think he's ready for the next step. And so scaffolding, it's important we see it happen through all of these examples that we just talked about. But I think you also need the data to back you up, to show you when it's time to introduce the next step.

And so I just kind of want to mention that because yes, errorless learning, it's helpful, it's useful, and our goal is to always fade. But sometimes there are good questions, like well, when are we going to do that? And it really just depends on the data. And you know, and the beauty of it too, Heather, is that like it's behavior, right? Like if you don't get in a week, that's okay, you keep working on it, and if things perhaps just don't go the way you plan, you can, it's a forgiving process, you can always go back and fix it. But I think sometimes we get caught up on that like, ‘well, he's not exhibiting this,’ and ‘we're giving him prompts,’ and it's like, yeah, but like give it time. Like we're competing against a history, a learning history where this worked all the time, and now we're trying to break the habit and build a new one. It's going to take time. Yeah, but errorless learning, that's how I would describe it and how we used it. And then again, based on data, that's going to make your decision of when the student is ready for the next level.

I know we're kind of talking about the amount of support that is provided, but I think you also had, at the very beginning, hinted at things about task analysis. So we need to know that there are so many different pieces of whatever it is that we are trying to help this student get through, and the types of supports that are needed at either different types of tasks that are included within that task analysis, or different days are going to need different types of supports with different pieces of it.

Walk me through, like how do you break that down? And then is there any of that data collection that you're watching of like okay, they've got this part, but they don't have this part yet. And so our scaffolds are going to look different, maybe on parts that they do have versus parts that they don't across that entire multi-step process that they're trying to accomplish.

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, have you heard of forward chaining, backward chaining, total test, like all of those chainings? Because when you do get a student, and you have a goal in mind, and it's an appropriate goal, it's socially validated. The student needs to learn how to brush their teeth or at least how to have appropriate hygiene skills. But where are we going to start? And so, at least in my practice, we typically go see the student, and we typically ask the teacher. Or we go in, and we kind of take our baseline data, and we assess the student, too of like, okay, what are they capable of doing in that moment? And from there, you're able to see what skills they are exhibiting, what skills they are lacking, and go from there.

And chaining came up because I've had many students where I think they are able to exhibit certain steps, but some are missing. And so, depending on what you think is best, like a BCBA would recommend, like, ‘okay, we're going to start with forward chaining,’ or like ‘we're going to start with a backward chain,’ or ‘hey, like it seems like they know all the steps and they might need certain prompting throughout.’

But I think it all just depends on what you're seeing when you're assessing the student. I think for my in-home days or clinical days, it was just the same thing, where a parent would come to me and would be like, ‘Okay, I really want to teach my 4-year-old how to void in the toilet to be potty trained.’ And so we will look at the student or the client and see what they're capable of doing and kind of build up from there.

And then, once you have an idea and it's like, okay, ‘how am I going to break this idea down or this behavior down into smaller steps that are achievable, where we can also see progress.’ And again, it should be individualized depending on who you're working with. What I propose for one student may not work for another student because every student exhibits different behaviors and has different skill sets. But that's how I would break skills down. Or like when I first see a student exhibiting something, and we want to work on something.

Of course, and I appreciate how you're basically like, there are so many different moving pieces here. Like, and there's a bunch of different ways that you can approach, and some things we can plan for, and we can come in, and we have like, here's the perfect task analysis, and we're going to run a forward training model. And like here's our prompting hierarchy and how we're going to attach different prompts to different parts, like all these things. Like, we can be very planful about it, but there's also an aspect of just responsively seeing a need and meeting it in the moment.

So I'm curious, can you walk me through, sometimes we come in very planfully, and sometimes the plan ends up getting thrown out the window. So, I'm curious if you can walk me through maybe a couple of examples where it's like, ‘yep, here's the protocol. And we ran the protocol, and that's where that learning really took off.’ And there are other times where it's like, ‘we just jumped in, and we saw this need, and we supported in this way. And then we saw learning happen there as well.’

In behavior, you can go in with the most perfect plan, and then you're like, wait, what? Like, this is happening now? But an example that's coming to mind right now is, okay, so, with the student that I was mentioning earlier about teaching him an appropriate way to communicate, there was a situation where we first started with, like, low-tech. So, like, visuals for him to communicate ‘Yes’ or ‘No.’

And the reason why is because, at that time, when I observed him, he was not tolerating a device whatsoever. If you were to bring a device near his space, he would push you away. There is something about the device, or I'm not really sure. It justseemed aversive, and he would push it away and it would typically be paired with like, a vocalization that you can obviously read that this is something that he just perhaps doesn't like. And so we start with visuals. And that he was receptive to. He was okay with that. 

And I think the team was ready to just like, ‘okay, seems like he's doing well with visuals. Let's go ahead and jump into the device.’ And it's like, I'm not sure, but at the end, I think we decided as a team that we were going to do that. And then we saw. I mean, you can literally see on a graph where his communication skills were growing. Like, he was exhibiting yes and no. And then once the device was introduced, you see the trend going down, and you're like, okay. And so that was a moment where we're like, okay, this is perhaps too big a jump. Maybe let's still have the visuals present, and we can have the device there and still model by using the device, but he can still communicate by using his words.

And so you're kind of pairing that a little bit, and then we'll kind of see where it goes from there. And this was just not too long ago. So we will be meeting soon about that to see the data on how he's been responding. But we did have that little hiccup there, where maybe we jumped too far ahead by using the device, and maybe we should have waited. But again, data is going to help us make that decision, too.

So before we wrap up, I want to make sure that we also have a little bit of conversation around when maybe adults think that they're being helpful, but sometimes they're actually being too helpful, and the students aren't showing these skills. We're talking about all these different ways that, as adults, we're setting up the environment, we're setting up the instruction, we're providing the reinforcement and the opportunities for responding, like, all of these things, so that our students can show up so successfully. Especially, we're talking about errorless learning. Like, ‘kids should be perfect all the time.’ Well, not necessarily. Our goal is that independence, and how are we watching that.

So I want to make sure that you have a little bit of time here at the end of this conversation to share when it's maybe too much? When are adults maybe overstepping and not actually just scaffolding that support for that student?

Yeah, I laugh at, like, the way you said it. Like, you know, when folks are just providing a little bit too much more support than needed. I think you said that very nicely. And, you know, you're going to see that happen not just in schools, but, like, in the home with parents or with grandparents or like in clinics as well with certain staff. It happens. And I think it just starts by having a conversation, presenting your idea, and hearing them out for why this is happening.

I do think of a situation that we had with another multidisciplinary member where great intentions were there. I know she meant well, but her theory of wanting to do something with his device was a little bit too much, I thought. Now, again, I'm not a speech therapist. I'm a BCBA, but I'm a team player. I love to collaborate, but I think it was going to take the data to really make that decision. Like, ‘hey, I think this is why maybe introducing the device was not going to be a great idea.’ I think that is the end goal. We want to get there, but I don't think that this is the next step. I think that step is going to come later down the road.

I also think of parents as well, where, maybe sometimes, with the grandparents, they want to provide all the support in that moment. And it's like, ‘yeah, but we kind of have to wait till he does the first or second step, and then we can go ahead and reinforce in the third step.’ You know, I laugh, and I'm smiling as I'm saying this because I know great intentions are there and they mean well, but I think we just need to have honest conversations and be respectful and kind to each other about why perhaps that may not be working. But I don't know if you would agree too, Heather, but I think it just kind of starts like that. And thankfully, I think at the end of the day, we end up working things out because we do really have the best interest of the student and the client.

Oh, of course. And I mean, I think in my mind, some of the things that are coming to mind are when staff are thinking of all of these strategies and supports and these scaffolds that we can put in place to support students. But at a certain point, then we watch that shift over into learned helplessness with our students, where it's like, well, now they've learned how we support them. They haven't actually learned what we are trying to get them to learn through leveraging those supports.

Yep, that's very true. Where you are providing too much. And, you know, there was another situation that we ran into where I think, environmentally, there was a lot of support. And I think the teacher, again, had great intentions; she meant well. But I know we would walk in. I'm like, there's a lot going on here. Like, it's kind of a little overstimulating. And it was all great things, but what we wanted the student to do was still not happening. And so we kind of had to look at the environment and be like, look, I know this is here for this support. This is here for this support, and I get it. But, I think this might be overdoing it a little bit, where I don't think that the students really, like, it's not really capturing what you want the student to do, because the data is still showing that this behavior is still happening.

And so I think that's a very good example that you just brought up, because I think I've seen that before where there's a lot of supports, and it's great, and it looks awesome, but it might be, like, the students still not doing what we want them to do. So that's going to start a conversation where there needs to be a conversation of, okay, something needs to change here. What is that going to be?

Well, thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation with me. All about scaffolding supports. In the world of behavior analysis, we have a lot of tools that go into kind of the learning process. Where, in education, a lot of times we'll see things that leverage more in that instructional process, and together it's all scaffolding. So thank you so much for having this conversation with me today.

Thank you.