This week, we're talking about High-Leverage Practice # 22: providing positive and constructive feedback to guide students' learning. And Cass, I'm so excited to hear from you and what this looks like in your practice.
Yes, thank you for having me. I'm very, very excited to talk about this because I think there's a lot of misconceptions. When we think about what learning is; we think academics. And it's not necessarily just that. There's so much more to that. Yeah, academics is learning. You're not wrong. But what I will say is that there is so much more embedded within academics.
While I'm in an educational setting now, previous to that, I was in a clinical setting. And that clinical setting taught me that I can't teach academic skills in that setting just because of the way that those things work and they're funded. But when I can do, because I understand that while these students are working on their behavioral skills and things like that, they also really need their academics as well. They really need that. And so maybe we need to learn how to use scissors by cutting straight lines, because you're in kindergarten and you'll be going into first grade next year.
And so those sorts of things are embedded in every single thing we do. So learning shows up in every pocket, everywhere. So if I see that you need fine motor skills. Maybe you're not so strong. Maybe your pencil markings are really light, and I cannot read what you're writing. You're spelling it right, but I can hardly read it. I'm going to start drawing with you. I'm going to start drawing with you because you also really like to draw. And we're going to work with different types of materials as we draw, so that we can get those skills that when we write something down, our voice matters.
Now, learning can show up in a lot of different ways. So that means our feedback has to show up in a lot of different ways. So a lot of the time when we're looking at these student populations that maybe don't have typical verbal skills, they're not communicating their language and their speech that way, in what we would typically, maybe we're looking at a student that uses an AAC device or uses picture exchange communication systems or pointing or sign language. Maybe we have deaf students. Maybe we have students who are hard of hearing who can't necessarily hear our praises or our cheers. What are we doing to make sure that our feedback is showing up in different ways?
So when I have a student that does not care about my voice or my praise, but really, really, really loves sensory noodles, you better believe that when they get that skill, they're immediately getting a sensory needle. Now, I'm going to cheer, and I'm going to praise. I'm gonna do all the things because I'm excited for them, but I'm also going to make sure that that feedback shows up in different ways. And for them, my praise means nothing. My feedback that way means absolutely nothing. But when I hand over that noodle and that sensory noodle, they're like, ‘Oh my god, I did a good job! Oh, my god, I did great! I'm gonna do that again! I'm gonna do that again because I love my noodles!’ So our feedback doesn't show up just in that verbal way. It also shows up in other ways. Sometimes it's a high five. Sometimes it's as simple as that.
Maybe I've come across this by accident. Maybe our student doesn't want to be called out with positive praise in front of the class. Maybe they just want you to come over and tap on their desk and say, “Hey, awesome job. I see you.” So maybe those other ways that you are already giving that feedback, maybe that's not enough, or maybe that's not the mark. Maybe that doesn't work for that student. And so what we can do is find these skills that are embedded in what we're already learning and what we're already doing and reinforcing those in ways that don't have to be necessarily a big, loud praise every time.
I don't have to go over to my computer and add points to a system. What I can do is come over and give them a tap on the shoulder and say, “Hey, I see that you're using these scissors really, really well. I can see how awesome your straight lines are. Look at you go.” And now we're not only working on cutting lines, but we're also working on building up our fine motor skills so that when we have to button our pants later after the bathroom, our pants button a little bit easier, and we can reinforce that, too.
So you're talking so much about how you let them know that they've learned this skill, but I know you have walked some students through some long learning journeys to be able to get to that moment where, ‘oh, my gosh, it actually stuck.’
Can you back me up and walk me through? Like, what are some of those, I'm thinking, like, constructive learning strategies, or how do you help them start to either know what that target is or get closer, I’m thinking in those approximations where they're moving in that direction. Like, what are those learning strategies that you're using to guide them in those directions?
Sure. So in my clinical background, there's a thing called shaping. And so we like to shape behavior. That means also that we can shape learning, we can shape skills. So, for example, I had a student who all he wanted to do was play, but he did not have the way to say that. And often, what my friend would do is just run off. Well, that's not quite going to work.I understand that you were very fast and you are great at accessing that playground, but we have to work through asking for it first. So something as simple as that.
So what we did was, he also didn't have great fine motor skills, so sign language, which is what his family really wanted him to learn, because they already spoke it in his household, it took us some time. It took us a long time. And so for something as simple as play, which is your thumb and pinky extended on both hands and twisting your wrists to say ‘play’ was not going to happen overnight at all.
So what we did was he broke down that skill into smaller steps, and manageable steps for him so that he could build up on those steps and those strengthening those motor skills. So what we did was we did a thumbs up, and we said, "Hey, if you can give us a thumbs up,” which we already knew he could do, but to know that we're going to pair that with the word play. “Hey, thumbs up, great, we're going to go play.”
So I'm going to say that I'm communicating those things, but all he did was give a thumbs-up. So if someone were to come in and say, well, that's not sign language, that's not play, it is today. And sometimes that's what it has to look like. That today, this is play. And so we start there. And so eventually I'm going to say, okay, well, he has this thumbs up, and I'm going to say, “oh, you want to go play?” And then I'm going to reach over, and I'm going to touch his pinkies. By then, he would extend them just a little bit. ‘Awesome! Let's go play!’ And so now I'm not just reinforcing that thumbs-up. What I'm reinforcing is also that thumbs up and the pinkies out. He needs a little help. And eventually, what he's going to do, and it's a beautiful thing, it's very, very cool when it works. We love science. But what that does then is that it tells him, ‘Oh, if my pinkies are out, I can go too.’
So now we're reinforcing slow increments toward the end goal, to where we can actually build up and say, yeah, eventually he will twist his wrists and he will stick his thumb out and his pinkies out at the same time, and he's going to get it right because we slowly reinforced any amount of progress. That's what we have to recognize in that feedback is that even if that progress is small, if it's large, we're going to still reinforce that.
We're going to slowly extend that expectation, but we're also going to identify when they need that help. I understood that the student didn't have great fine motor skills. So, sticking his pinky out, he's not going to just know that. I've only ever expected him to put his thumbs out. So then I start to communicate, “Hey, I also want your pinkies out now, too.” And we help him, and we help him. And eventually, I'm going to slowly step back, and I'm going to wait a little bit longer, see if he's going to do it on his own that time. And guess what? He started to. By the end of this process, this student was asking for play quite often, but he was so good at it. But you also know what that did to his behavior.
He stopped running away. He stopped leaving in the middle of tasks because he knew that he had a voice. And so it seems like not a big deal. It seems like one word. Okay, he can ask for play. Well, actually, this just became a safety thing for his family. And now, when he sees a playground, and they're out camping, he can ask to go play, and he doesn't show up missing.
So these things are huge, huge. And all it took was expecting him to take smaller steps rather than jumping to a goal. If I had to go and sit for a degree exam on something I never learned, I would not pass that test. That's not fair. I had to pass those classes first. I had to pass those exams, those tests, those quizzes. Everything that we do is broken down. So why are we not breaking down that for our students as well?
Well, your example has somewhat of an embedded frustration tolerance, where you had a student who was able to continue to try hard things. I think a lot of students in this population, I hear the words around, like instructional stamina. Like, they can't focus that long. They can't do hard things where they have a low frustration tolerance. Low instructional stamina. I mean, part of this High-Leverage Practice is actually naturally increasing that.
So I'm curious, in your practice, how have you been able to help those students increase that instructional stamina, increase their frustration tolerance so that they can engage in learning these new skills through that positive and constructive feedback that you're providing?
Sure. So it's not linear. That's one thing I think we always have to keep in mind. It's never going to be linear. That took that student a long time. And for me to say he was going to hit it in six months is a little unfair. We can choose that, and we can hope for that. And we're going to make those adjustments as we go, but we also have to respond to the data. So if we're monitoring this skill, we have to respond to that data where it says, ‘hey, yes, it's still working,’ or ‘hey, maybe our expectations are a little too far quite yet.’ And if we're having a student who is losing that motivation, we have to build that confidence back up again. And that can happen sometimes in the middle of this entire process. So what happens then? What do we do? How do we identify that?
Well, it was working for a while, but now we've switched goals. And as you said, he can't focus for that long. Well, that's not necessarily fair to say because have we looked at his motivation? Have we looked at his reinforcement schedule? Have we looked at how he is receiving that feedback? How does he know that you haven't forgotten to give him his reinforcement, and he's just waiting there for nothing? How does he know? So we have to communicate those things. And if we realize that, hey, that goal, that threshold of maintaining that focus is too far, we need to scale it back. And we can't be so proud to say that the goal was too lofty this time. But that doesn't mean that we can't add another minute. We can't add another minute. Oh, okay, the minute's too much. Great, let's add 30 seconds. Well, that's not enough. That's not doing anything. We'll never meet 10 minutes by the end of the year. Okay, guess what? We met five, and he had zero at the beginning of the year. So that's okay.
And I think sometimes we get so hung up on what that goal is and that trajectory is and what it has to look like when it has to be done. But the fact of the matter is, is that this is their life. These are life skills, which means we are still practicing them as humans ourselves. We are still practicing those same goals as these students are too. We just might have a bigger threshold. We may not be dealing with so many sensory things, right? So we have to understand that everybody's journey and everyone's life looks different. Which means those incremental steps aren't going to be structured the same as much as I wish I could say that every child toilet trains up to five minutes at increments, at 30 seconds, you add them every three weeks, they're great, they hit it. And by the end of this time period, you have a potty-trained child. That would be so cool. That's not reality. And so what we have to understand is that it might take one kid two weeks to get potty-trained. It might take this other kid five years. But you know what? We don't give up, and we don't quit. And we keep adjusting to figure out what motivates them, what keeps them going, recognizing when they have made progress, even if it's for three more seconds. That's it.
So we think, ‘Oh, this is lofty. Oh, this is hard.’ Well, no, I think what it is, is our expectations, and we need to change that expectation to understand that if you're in the educational setting, I wish that he were reading and writing by grade three. That's not always everybody's trajectory. It's a beautiful structure and a thought for every single student in this country to fit that space, or in the state to fit that space. But that's not how that looks. And we have to be open to understanding that progress is progress, and these are lifelong skills that they will work on, that we as people are still working on ourselves.
Thank you for being a practitioner who sees the potential in the struggle. That knowing that it's not, ‘oh well, this kid hasn't done this skill by this timeline. Therefore, they can't, they won't.’ Like that's it. It's okay, well, let's keep going and see when we can get there. So I am so appreciative of that perspective where you don't just say, ‘okay, well, they didn't meet that on that timeline, so therefore that's not gonna be part of their story.’
It's like, no, actually maybe just their story has a different timeline, not different skills or different outcomes. And I think especially with the low-incidence population, we have to show up that way. We can't just think, ‘oh well, they didn't hit the certain metrics.’ That's part of how they're with us.Is that they aren't hitting those milestones, or they aren't hitting them in the anticipated or projected ways. Especially thinking like developmental delay with our littles. To know that it's not just, ‘it's not now, then it's never.’ That it's actually just, ‘well, it's not yet.’And choosing to hold that perspective around the students that you are supporting in this population, that is such a beautiful thing. Thank you.
As you say that, I'm thinking about these situations where that shows up pretty regularly. Where we think these ‘self-contained classrooms.’ I say that in quotations. So here in my quotations, when I say ‘self-contained,’ we think, ‘oh, I've heard so many terrible things regarding that.’ Where it's, ‘well, we'll just toss them in there.’ Well, first of all, we don't toss anybody anywhere. If we need some support in there, awesome. But guess what? As a self-contained teacher, a clinician turned self-contained teacher. I'm confused by the self-contained label. I understand that they could be subject to sitting in here all day. That's going to be their choice. Because at the end of the day, my goal is to have them not be self-contained. And I think often, especially in our life skills population. Those low-incidence, those students are like, ‘oh, they can't be in a classroom.’
Oh, why not? Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not this year. But aren't we taking steps towards that? Because isn't that their right? Isn't that where they should be? And I think that's a lot of the times where we fall off, where it's like, ‘oh, well, that's the best they're ever going to do.’ We can't provide that, or they can't do it, or they can't handle it. Well, why not? Have we just not found the angle? Have we not recognized the progress? Well, he's staying in your classroom; he didn't stay in a classroom before. That's good progress. Step one.
And so I think that that's something to remember, that when we could be like, oh well, that student just, they just can't. That's bizarre to me. I don't know anyone who's been like, ‘for sure, this is forever, how they're going to be forever.’What? That's not being, that's not humanity, that's not growth, and that's not being people. And I think we are very much anybody who's listening to this has an opportunity to advocate for that change of mindset and that change of expectation and saying, no, no, no, that self-contained just means self-contained for right now. That doesn't mean forever.
So I just, I wanted to throw that out there and add that on because it is a place where I think that our mindsets again are faulty. Where we say, oh, they, they just can't. Why not? You haven't found the angle yet. You haven't talked to the right person, you haven't looked at the right research, you haven't found it yet. And that's okay. But we have to understand that that's our goal because that student deserves to be a part of a community bigger than just this class.
Thank you so much for wearing your heart on your sleeve and being so incredibly passionate about those that you are serving every single day. And thank you so much for joining to talk about this High-Leverage Practice, too. My goodness. Thank you so much for closing out our season this way.
Absolutely.