For this high-leverage practice. We are talking about systematically designing instruction toward a specific learning goal. I've also got Alex back with me and I'm really excited to see where this conversation goes because he approaches this from such a different lens than I do. So, Alex, for you, when you are looking at systematically designed instruction, what does that mean in your context?

Well, it may look a little differently for you. Once we are in the school, we’ve already done all the initial stuff. We've done our assessment, our observation, we've had all of our data and now, thankfully, we've been approved and we can work in the school with our client. So once we're there, the way I systematically work on these goals, we look at the data we have already. I have my baseline, I create the goals. And now when I'm creating these goals, unfortunately, we do have restrictions depending on the funder.

Actually, let me correct myself. For all funders that I typically work with, there are restrictions. We cannot replace anything that the school should be providing. So when I make my goals, I gotta make sure that I'm not overlapping with something the school should be doing already. I also need to make sure that none of the goals that I'm working on are academic. So they don't want us working on any math goals. They don't want us working on work with a client.

So when I'm there, it's essentially we're working on these goals that should better support the client throughout the day, helping them, ensuring that they are doing what they need to do while slowly and systematically fading ourselves out. But moreover, I always collaborate with the teacher and I always see what goals that they have and I see what the overlap is there and if it's something that we can work on and we are already working on, my goal is to help supplement that so that way the teacher can achieve those meaningful outcomes for their students.

But, yeah, I mean, when we're in the school, we kind of have a hand tied behind our back, and we also take creative approaches on teaching certain skills. So, for example, if I can't target a specific skill due to the restrictions of the funder, a great way to work on these skills is working on it through either caregiver or teacher training. So through teacher training, I may not be able to work on staying on task because that could be seen as academic, but I can have a teacher sit with the client, and then I can coach the teacher on how to work on that skill. So essentially what I would tell my RBT to do, but now my teacher is the RBT, and he's the one working with the client and implementing that with them.

So that's kind of like our workaround, you know? Okay, I can't do it with my RBT, I can’t do it myself, but I can target that with the teacher, and then that's how… We may not be able to target everything, but we try our best to target as much as possible so that way the teacher feels supported, and they're also learning and learning how to work with that particular child as well. So that's how it looks like for me. How about you?

Yeah, it's completely different because when I look at this high leverage practice, I'm just looking at, okay, so I have a student who has a need, right? Like, they're-... We just need to close that gap, whatever that may be, and then the practice is to do that with my instruction. Like, how do I set up my instruction to get them from where they are right now to where they need to be?

And in the schools, I guess you're kind of hinting at it, but, like, it sort of is just assumed that that's my job, and so I have to. So I don't get to say, well, that's technically this person's job or that person's responsibility. The kid is here, the kid’s got a gap, and as long as it's impacting their education, which in schools is very loosely and widely defined. So it's not like, oh, that's academic so that's a school thing. It's literally like, if the kid shows up with it and it's impacting their school performance, then it's something we can work on which has some wide reaching, very interesting things that then can be interpreted as being kind of under the purview of a school.

And I think in Covid then it also expanded beyond what most practitioners, even the most caring, just big hearted practitioners out there, some things that were even beyond that then started getting as interpreted as then things that we need to support. And so for me, then it's going, okay, so what are those things? How is that showing up? Where do we need it to go? Like, where are we hopeful that that kid will be able to either perform or how can they leverage some of those skills that they've got now to grow into skills that will help them in the future?

And then it's the art of connecting the dots. So, like, that systematic instruction is just going, okay, so we know where we are, we know what we gotta-… what we're kind of up against or what we're trying to work with. Let's get there right?

Let's make progress. Let's try to move forward in some kind of a meaningful way for our student. But I think that to me, there is kind of the art and science that shows up with systematic instruction where there's the science, it’s like my BCBA side where I'm very data heavy and wanting to see everything aligned and being able to track clear, beautiful trend lines over time and all of that.

And then there's the art of it, of like, can I get in the mess and can I see a kid for who they are and then line up those skills and strategies that I've got or if there's resources or people, like, how can I then orchestrate that learning experience to really get them where they need to go? And, like, that to me, is that beautiful mesh ofsystematic instruction. You've got that data backing you can see and track and rock those trends over time, but you're doing it in a way that you're just getting in the mess with a student and living that, breathing that, walking that with them through it.

So, quite honestly, I kind of love my bubble compared to how you're talking about yours. Cause I get to just see it, recognize it, own it, and let's work with it. Like, let's go. Right? And I think I definitely have worked with folks that get frustrated because of all of the things. I work with really complex students and students who have a lot of other systems that they're involved in.

And so there can be a lot of kind of seemingly barriers or just, like, things are getting in the way, including students that are just, like, f off, I'm not doing this right? Like, I'm out. So even given that, I think there's so many cool things that we can do to set the student up to kind of realize their own potential, and then they can jump into that systematically designed instruction and actually see that growth happening, and then we can kind of work it out from there.

But I love it because, my doors are wide open. It can be overwhelming because there's so many things we can do. But I think it's also really freeing to be able to take a holistic perspective of a student and then pull all those pieces together in some kind of a meaningful way without having to be like, well, this is kind of my job. That's kind of your job. So if we kind of both kind of sort of do our own thing, then maybe we can sort of get to the outcome that we're trying to get to.

That's just, gosh, that sounds so, I don't know, unnecessarily complicated.

Yeah, it definitely is. And it doesn't help that there are providers out there that aredoing the things that they're not supposed to be doing and going against what the funder has. So when I go into a school and I'm like, hey, this is what we're supposed to be doing, you know? Being ethical and adhering to the restrictions of the funder. Some schools look at me like I'm crazy.

They're like, but, yeah, that guy over there is doing that, and that guy over there is doing that. I don't know who the funder is for them, but I'm telling you, for this particular client, I cannot. And I've had many calls where I gotta be very, very specific about what my role is in the school with different funders because they see us in the school and they're like, why are you there?

Why isn't the school doing something about this? And of course, there's a bigger conversation where, oh, the school should be doing all this. You shouldn't be there. The school should be writing all these services. These students are entitled to these based on their IEP and these accommodations.

Why are you guys there? And it's like having to sell that and tell them, like, well, this is why we're here, and it sometimes can lead to very difficult conversations, but it's very restricting. I definitely want to help more than what we're doing in the school. I definitely want to be able to…- I don't want us to be seen as a shadow because it could very easily become that and be like, oh, they're going to do all the work. They're going to do the teaching. They’re gonna do all the working. No, I don't want that. There's a nice middle ground where we're there to support but the teacher still has to do their job and teach the client, and we don't want to overstep that, but there is definitely a middle ground. But again, given the restrictions that we have, we cannot reach that middle ground. So it's more like we gotta be pulled back a little more. So, like where you said, I think very nicely, you see it, you observe it, and you do something about it. I see it, I observe it. I can't do everything about it.

I'm just there, like, I can do some things, and then I get creative with other things and maybe through teacher training, that's how we could accomplish the goals that you have set out for your student. But I cannot specifically target that as I want to.

Yeah.

So it's always very interesting hearing you talk about it and hearing how you talk about things from your perspective, because I'm like, man, I wish, I could do all that. That sounds awesome. I would love to be able to see a need and, all right, yeah, target that immediately. But I can't. And it's like I had to kind of work around it and target it in a different way via the teacher training or anything like that.

But I wish that this was the case with all funders that I work with, but unfortunately, most of them, I think all of them, to be honest with you, do not want us doing anything in school.

Well, I think, although it's a bit of a sidestep, the next half of this episode is going to go into all of those details that are like, the sequence of lessons or how do you set up a lesson in a systematic way that then can a student can walk through their learning? And it's all of that really nitty gritty instruction. But I think really, the conversation that you and I are having right now is that yes to all of that. Yes and absolutely to all of that. Right? Like, that is that beautiful mesh of the art of teaching, of instructing and then bringing in that data to be able to kind of see in that systematic way, like, am I structuring it in a way that I know is going to really result in learning?

But I think what you and I are talking about is even how do we systematically design people to be able to champion different corners of that instruction so that the students' experience is a holistic experience that they are then able to progress through to achieve those learning goals. So, like I said, the next half of this episode is all about in that lesson planning and scoping out how do I create that progression of lessons?

But at the end of the day, especially if we have co teachers or paraprofessionals or other specialists that have other things that they can leverage on our behalf, let's lean into each other's areas of expertise so that then whatever each one of us are allowed to do, we can. And we can truly leverage that for the team, for the kid. And really on the teacher's side, I'm looking at it then those are things off my plate.

So those are things that then if you've got that great, own it, run with it, let's go, right? And let's do it in partnership in a way that then I can own, in essence, everything else. Because that's the life of a case manager is anything that anybody else can't cover, it's all going to fall on me anyway so I'm always thankful for anything y'all can take off. So I think as we're having this conversation, it's more than just how do we set up a lesson and how do we set up a series of lessons to get a student from the beginning to where they need to be?

But it's, how can we do that collectively, collaboratively, and really leaning into each other's expertise on behalf of the student that we're working with?

It's a great question. Yeah, I mean, it's, again, a little tricky for us. And really, the way I've been approaching it in my experience is, and I think you said it perfectly, it's like, hey, this is what I can do. This is what I can teach. This is what I can provide as an asset to the classroom. This is what my RBT can do. This is what I can do. And I'm completely open to helping in those particular ways.

But I also have to kind of, again, given the classrooms that I have worked in and the experiences that some of the teachers already have with ABA and practitioners in the field, it's kind of like unconditioning the conditioning, if that makes sense, because just like how you said those RBTs are there, those practitioners are there I should say, when they're there, they're doing whatever the teacher wants and a little bit to a degree that's too much.

Where I see some RBTs sometimes interacting with kids that aren't their kids, they're kind of overstepping some boundaries there, and the teacher is all for it. The teacher wants that. They're just like, oh, yeah, this is support for me. But then when I come in, it's kind of more like, no, we're not supposed to be doing that. I'm here for him and I'm also here to work with you. But beyond that, I cannot do anything else. If you leave this classroom, I have to leave this classroom. I can't be here alone with ten kids, you know? And you'd be surprised, situations like that have happened. And that's kind of like, we butt heads in those situations because it's like at the end of day, it's a liability. If anything happens to these kids, I'm the only adult here, something that falls on me.

So the way that I really approach that is just like, I tell them what I can do. Like, hey, this is what I can do. I'm here in the classroom. Based on the restrictions of the funder, this is what I can't do. I'm going to work on these skills, this skill, this skill, this skill. Now, when it comes to doing these skills, I'm going to need you to come here, or I'm going to need your teacher assistant to come here, or I'm going to need your para, whoever the case is, whoever it might be, I'm going to need them to come here, and then we're going to work on this together. You know, the RBT might be there to provide behavioral supports in case anything happens. They implement the intervention, but for the most part, they cannot do what you may need them to do and what you may have other practitioners doing.

And that tends to get a little tricky just because we're being, I guess, too ethical or we're hearing too much of the restrictions but we always gotta ensure that we're not crossing lines and we're not creating anything of concern to the school itself. You know, we don't want the school to see us and be like, okay, yeah, cool, they got this. I'm like, no, no, no, we don't got this unfortunately.

We got what we can do, but you gotta handle the things that you need to do. And, yeah, that's always been the trickiest part about us being in a school because we want to achieve those same goals that they do, but given that they're already conditioned with other providers and how those practitioners have been working in classroom, and then we come in, and then we're kind of like, no, we're not- we're not going to do all that.

It does make it a little tricky to achieve those meaningful outcomes with them. However, I'm not speaking for all schools. I'm also speaking for my experiences and I've had great experiences where I tell a teacher all this and they're 100% on board. They're like, yep, that's fine. That makes sense. No problem. I'll do what I got to do. And they're 100% all for it. And they're very open to the support that we provide, and they're also very open to learning everything that we're implementing with our client.

And to a greater extent, they might even carry that out in their daily life when they're working with other kids. They're like, oh, hey, maybe this intervention that I learned for him might help there. I'm not sure, but at least I'm providing them with tools. And those have always been the best experiences because it was never like I had to uncondition anything. It's just like I tell them this and like, okay, cool, let's do it. And that has always been the best because I've always gotten the most success with those clients in their classrooms because the teacher is carrying out the interventions that we have designed, and we've been able to achieve those meaningful outcomes that they have for their client.

I'll never forget that I was at a sxchool a year ago, and the teacher that we had, she was incredibly sweet. She would always stay after school. She wanted to meet with me to teach her training. She wanted to learn as much as possible. And then the next day, I would see her during supervision, and she would be applying everything that we went over, and she was like, you would just see her face light up because she was like, oh, my God, I'm like, I'm getting through him.

He's actually doing what he's trying to work on. And I was like, yeah, I know. It's pretty effective. I know. So those are always the greatest. Yeah, I might be onto something. I'm not sure. But those are always the greatest stories because it was a success for all parties. It was a success on our end, because we're doing what we're doing. We're adhering to the restrictions of what our funders were working for, we're not overstepping, we're not replacing anything the school is doing. And then success on the teacher, because the teacher, like, I physically saw her contacting that reinforcement of actually getting through to our client and her student, and she was happy. She was like, wow, oh my God, this is amazing. And I'm like, yes, I know. This is awesome. Like, I'm happy to see her being able to use those tools and actually hitting her goals. Like, her goal for that particular client was just-. He had very poor fine motor skills, so her goal was just to have him hold a pen and then- not pen, a marker, I'm sorry. And then just trace a square on a laminate sheet.

And she was trying for so long, so long, so long. And eventually, when we do our teacher trainings the next day, I saw her, and she was impressed. She was blown away. She was like, look! She even took a picture of it, sent it to his mom. But, you know, it was a very beautiful moment because I was like, yeah, we collaborated. She told me what she was struggling with. I told her, hey, this is how we would approach a situation like that, given with what we're doing. And together, we were able to combine our experiences, and she was able to achieve one of the many goals she had for him.

So, yeah, I mean, for me, it's just dependent on…- for all my experiences, it just depends on the setting that I'm at, how motivated people are to kind of collaborate and work with me and also how understanding they are that I cannot do some of the things that maybe other practitioners are doing. And once we get all that and we are in complete understanding, from there, that's where we've been able to make the most meaningful outcomes for their students and our clients.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing your expertise. I always enjoy collaborating with you because you bring such a different perspective on how to do the work, but we share that same heart desire to see students served well, and that includes by serving their families and serving their staff. So thank you for talking about what this looks like in your context and kind of opening up the can of worms with me this week. I appreciate it.

Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me on.