This week, I have Nick Franczak with me. This is a rare opportunity that a teacher of a middle schooler gets to hang out with an adult grown man who has been through so many different things and is truly a champion and kind of a living example of the conversation that we're gonna have today.
I am really lucky that he is the neurodivergence advisor to our board for TLC Nonprofit, and his voice is so incredibly powerful. I'm excited to see where this conversation goes. So, Nick, when we are talking about making room for students with challenging behavior in our classrooms, what does that mean for you?
In my mind, that means everybody, not just people who have a place there, but people who deserve to have a chance to have a place in that academic setting.
I love that you're saying that they deserve it. They didn't have to earn it.
Right. They shouldn't have to earn a spot in that class. It should be a given to them.
I know. And I think you and I share that perspective for sure, where it's like, everybody has a potential that is there, and so how can we make that opportunity available to students, especially those who are struggling? I think on one hand, that can sound like this beautiful thing, and on the other hand, it is so hard to do well, right? So what are you thinking? I mean, you've walked that as a student, and now you get to walk this with your students. How does that work for you?
It is pretty tough, like you said, but I feel like I'm blessed to be able to walk the path, to want to go through it firsthand and pass the knowledge that you've taught me on to other students that I work with at the Transition to Adulthood program.
Well, so what are your tips and tricks? What are you bringing that maybe other people wouldn't understand?
If a student has trouble understanding a routine, we could break it down into sections: morning, lunch, and afternoon. And if a student needs extra time to do something, we would give them extra time to do that task. And when I was back in high school, if I had to take extra time to do a test, I would be able to be given 30 extra minutes.
I'm curious for you: why was that helpful?
I think for me, it alleviates the pressure and the time constraint. It allows me to just go through each question and answer it after analyzing it instead of being on a time crunch all the time.
Yeah, for sure. That stress, especially for students who have challenging behaviors, can show up in so many different ways.
Oh, yes. Yes, it can. Definitely did for me.
That's true. So I'm curious then, you're working with students who might have high-intensity behaviors. But I think you've also been a student in classrooms where there were frequent crises or lots of dysregulation, all that kind of stuff going on. What does it look like to have a genuine classroom environment when there are so many hard things going on all the time?
I feel like for me, it would be everybody giving it their all to include everybody, not just the students that don't have high crises, but also giving accommodations for those that do have these high-behavioral problems and using that to make a welcoming environment for not just the students that have a place in the classroom, but for higher-needs students as well.
Well, so then let's talk about this. So, for the students that might just sort of automatically be there- maybe let's say it's a general education classroom or they're just kind of there- what can they do to make it feel like a classroom environment, even with maybe some of their peers that are harder to get along with?
I feel that the students can include them on their projects and help them out with assignments, and the teacher can also provide that as well. And the teacher can also work with that by encouraging this connection and this welcoming classroom environment.
For sure. I think you've seen teachers that were very open to trying to understand hard students or trying to find wins kind of in situations that are really hard, but I think you've also worked with teachers that are just kind of like, "This is not my problem. This kid is inappropriate. Get them out." Right? So walk me through that. How have you seen this work really well?
When I was in an algebra class in high school, I remember that he would include other students who have high behavioral needs and not just students who automatically had a place there. He would call on them sometimes to answer a question, and he would allow them to answer it to the best of their ability. And I think I've seen that with you a lot. If a student is escalating, you would tell them to go take a five-minute break, remove them from the situation, and then tell them to come back, to reenter the situation slowly.
Well, tell me more about that, though, because I think it's not just, "Goodbye, get out of here, see you in 5." But what is the purpose of that?
So the purpose is to isolate the student to help them de-escalate. Not isolate them entirely, but just isolate them so they can bring themselves down. And once they bring themselves down, you talk about the problem to that student and how they can work on it to prevent it in the future.
For sure. So walk me through what that looks like for you, because I know you and I walked that a whole ton of times. And so it's a matter of giving you the space to kind of get your head on straight again, and then we can have that conversation to say, "So what actually happened, and how can we make sure that we don't get there again?" Walk me through it from your side, because I was just a teacher. So I'm seeing what I'm seeing. I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Can you explain what your experience was?
So if I was having trouble with something or if a routine was off, I would start to escalate a bit. And you saw that escalation, and you would tell me to go take a five-minute break in a quiet room. And so I would take the five-minute break, allow myself to bring myself down, and then an aide would talk about it, or you would talk about it to me, and then reintroduce me back into the classroom.
So what did you notice about the conversation that we would have after, when you were kind of pulling it back together and getting ready to go back in? What were some of the types of thoughts that we would explore before you jumped back in?
Prevent the problem, like taking deep breaths or thinking of something happy.
And then what would you notice when you would come back in the classroom? Is there anything that we would do as you were then getting back to it?
Reintroducing me back into the classroom and allowing me to get back to work and continue on with my day.
Because I think that part is your unique experience; when you're working with students who have challenging behaviors, or you're just seeing the escalation, you get it on a different level than someone like me would. And that's why you have such a powerful voice in that, because so many times when we're doing staff training, it's people like me training people like me. You know, it's just different. It's completely different.
It is different. Yeah. It's different from someone who's experienced it firsthand, compared to someone who had to go through it through their own mindset.
Exactly. So I'm curious for you, as we're reentering the classroom, and I think you experienced this personally, but you've been around a lot of either peers that were going through similar things and then coming back in, or now with your students, where they're going through things and then they're coming back in. How have you either seen it done well, or how do you do it well when you're bringing them back in to make sure that any harm or any of the rough stuff that happened before is kind of dealt with, worked through, so that everybody in that space continues to feel safe, students and staff?
Yep. So I feel like, working with students that are older, I feel like I would tell them to go talk to another teacher if they had to. Talking with another teacher after they've de-escalated helps a lot.
That's cool. I mean, that speaks to different relationships.Different students would have different relationships with different people. And sometimes that's really helpful.
Yep. And that's another thing about it is that different students have different relationships with other teachers, and that's part of connection because you're allowing them to talk to someone other than just one teacher, like I kind of had it back in middle school.
Yep, for sure. So then it sounds like you're really focused on making sure that the adults in school can see behind the behavior of students who are showing up with maybe a little bit more of those challenging behaviors. What about those peers? I know you've had a lot of reflections around friends, trying to make friends, supporting other people to make friends. I would love for you to share a little bit more about your experience there.
And when I was younger, it was pretty hard because I was in my own little world. I wasn't really that social back then. But I've learned to get better with people that have brought me out as a person, helped me make friends as a part of being open with my peers.
So how has that shown up for you? I mean, to go from your own world to, "I guess I should deal with all these people around me." How did that change? How did that show up for you?
It was a little rough in the beginning. People wouldn't include me, or they would make fun of me for being different from them. But for me, there's no such thing as being different. We're all the same people, regardless of your background or your individual needs. And I've learned to make friends with people like me. And I feel like it's really helped me out with making friends, and it's helped me make friends with people without autism.
Yeah. I mean, I got to see a little snapshot of your life in that moment where you're trying to figure out, "Do I even want to interact with some of these people?" Or, "If I have to, then how do I?" There's so much learning that happens as you're trying to make sense of other people, and I think that's true for everybody. You're spot on.
Yeah. And I'm still learning how to have conversations.
That's why I love that you're doing this. This is so awesome, Nick. Oh, so I'm curious. You've been really focused on saying “making welcoming spaces.” I think there are words for that. People saying, "You have a place here." But there's also a bunch of actions that can sort of say that without needing the words to say it. I'm curious if you have any strategies or ideas, things that you do, or things that worked for you, that communicated, maybe without words, "Hey, you're good. We're good. You still belong here. Let's make this happen."
For me, it would be creating positive attention or giving student praise. Like, "Hey, you're doing a good job. Keep it up. You're doing a really good job."
Yeah, especially after a hard moment.Because I know certain students can kind of get all up in their heads, like, "Oh no, now it's all over." "Now I've done this," or, "Now they're-" You know, your mind starts spinning. So to catch that and be like, "Hey, we're good. You're good."
Yeah, we're all good.
And have that be real. Have that be genuine. It's not just words. I truly mean, "We're good. We're okay."
Yeah, we're all good. Stuff happens. Things happen. Yep. We learn to catch ourselves so it doesn't happen again.
Yeah. What are some other ways that you've seen adults in schools make that space just so obvious that, yes, hard things happen, but we're okay?
Yeah. I would see them also giving them positive encouragement. And other staff might have to learn a bit how to give that positive encouragement.
Well, that's a hard one, Nick. I mean, you're starting to talk about maybe people who just see the hard parts, and they're not really seeing that opportunity behind those challenging behaviors.Have you had success in helping people change their minds?
Yeah, somewhat.
That's honest.
Some people are there for the commitment, and other people are just there for the money.
Yep. That's real in any workplace.
Yeah. Yes, it is.
Yeah. I'm curious. You have supported students as they're being pushed into shared classroom settings. I think you also were a student who saw some teachers be very open and excited to work with you, and other teachers roll their eyes and be like, "I'm stuck with another one." So, what have you seen work, especially for those staff who are kind of resistant? Maybe they're not very open to working with the hard students or even trying to see that they may have potential. What have you seen work to try to soften them a little bit? They may not be your best friend, but to kind of soften them and help them start to see maybe things that they're not seeing?
I would tell them that they might be different, but they're just people like us with different needs, and they might need other accommodations.
Yeah. And I know that's something that you've spoken to, like having extra time or being able to talk to certain adults can be really grounding or supportive. But sometimes teachers are just like, "But you just need to do your math." Sure, that's nice and all, but you just need to get your work done. Or, you can't just keep leaving this classroom. You need to actually engage in instruction. How do you deal with that? How do you walk that through?
They should learn to work with students like them, try to see what's really inside their head, what they're going through, and their mindset. And if they see that, then that'll really help them understand what that student is going through and that they're just like us, but they might need extra time, or they might need a quiet space to work in. But that doesn't make them any different from us.
100%. Yeah. I mean, you and I had a couple of situations where there were staff who were not really willing to work with you. And I don't know if you know part of this story. We, as the adults in your program, had actually dealt with some accusations of people thinking that we were cheating or that we were giving you answers. And so we were like, "Cool. You come down and watch us work." And so, our people went and covered their classrooms so they could come down and hang out in our classroom and just see how we did it, and that was so helpful.
That was definitely the aha moment for some of the staff who did that. And I just remember talking with you through it, being like, "Wait, this is weird. They're in the wrong classroom. Why are they here?" That kind of a thing. I was like, "'Cause we're gonna do what we do here." We're not gonna do anything weird. It's weird to them, but it's not weird to us.
We shouldn't change how we do things. Yeah.
And then they got to see the potential. Because what they had seen, they didn't even think that it was possible.But then to see it in a different space, done in a different way, and have this type of an outcome, they were like, "Oh, shoot. Okay." And we had some staff be really invested in working with hard kids because they got to see what that looked like. So we couldn't just use our words, couldn't just convince them, "Oh, you should be nice. Oh, you should think that this is possible." It's more like, "Well, fine. Come watch."
Exactly. Come watch.
I guess I'm really wondering: there are some staff who are very open to working with hard students, and the staff who are not. Sometimes you can get those beautiful moments, like what I was just explaining. We were able to walk people through being resistant to at least being open or curious. They may not be all in. That's okay. But I think as adults, sometimes the staff who just sort of get it and are willing to support- sometimes then they just are getting all the students.
And the student or the staff who are like, "Eh, not interested, not a thing," or, "I'm just gonna kick him out if you send him in my class anyway," then students don't even get scheduled with them. Like, they're not even in their classes. They don't have to deal with it. So I'm wondering how you would recommend staff- I'm thinking teachers or any of the adults in schools that are really good at working with hard students- who don't get overloaded with a lot of hard students; what would you recommend to them? Because they're taking on a lot of hard things kind of on behalf of their colleagues. What words of wisdom or advice would you recommend for them as adults choosing to do hard things?
Give these students a chance. You never know what kind of a heavy relationship you can form with them, and it gives you the experience to work with these students if you ever get them in the future.
I think you and I are living examples of that.
Yeah. Yes, we are.
Well, you have grown and changed so much as a human over all of the years that I have gotten to know you. I'm wondering if there's anything that is standing out for you as, like, "Gosh, if I went back to my 12-year-old self, the things I know now that my 12-year-old self had no clue." Is there anything that you're kind of like, "Oh, man, I wish my younger self knew that"?
There are definitely times when I wish that I could go back.
Oh, not necessarily go back.
Oh, I know, I know. But if I went back to my 12-year-old self, I would tell myself, "Hey, just take a deep breath. Think about it for a moment, and just think about it, and then come back to the classroom."
Yeah, I think pausing for you has-
Pausing.
Good man. That has done so much for you. Because especially, like, your mind just goes so fast.
Yes, it does.
So fast, so quick. It's already gone before we've even noticed that it's left. And yeah, I think pausing has been just huge for you. I would agree. Because at the time, we were just like, "Come on, it's okay." And you're like, "No, it's not. This is not how this is gonna work out." So I love seeing more of the adult perspective, being like, "Oh, it is kind of okay."
It is okay.
Like, "That did work out." Any other ahas that you have had as you've grown up and kind of thinking of all of the different things that you have walked through in your life? Anything that you think would be helpful for, I'm thinking, like, school people to hear, especially those who are doing hard things with hard students and maybe not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel on this? Being like, "No, no. I am living proof that there is light at the end of this tunnel. Keep going."
There is.Yeah. And another thing for me was schedule changes. Schedule changes can be a big thing for me sometimes. And if we learn to front-load those students that might have trouble with changing their schedule, then it could help prevent any further behavior issues from happening.
That's true. Yeah. Sometimes giving the heads-up can be really helpful. I think sometimes giving the heads-up can be maybe a little more anxiety-producing too. And sometimes there are times that we just don't even know. Like, you and I both don't know, so I can't give you a heads-up because I'm surprised too.
Yep. Sometimes change can happen unexpectedly. What was the experience for you having to go through me, learning from me?
So, when I was your teacher?
Yeah, exactly. And how did you use that to start to further your career with people with challenging behaviors?
Yeah. That's a solid question. Let's see. So things that I learned while I worked with you, is that I think before, oh gosh, maybe 3 or 4 or 5 years, because I was still really early in my career when I got to work with you, I had been doing a lot of work with autism and so I was doing autism conferences, and that was just sort of a student population that I was really drawn to understanding more. And so I think I was lucky because I was coming in pretty well-informed, and I'd already had some professional experience trying to make sense of it and finding different strategies or different angles of things. I kind of already understood overwhelm. I understood schedule change issues. I understood some sensory sensitivity. My head got it, but then I think, working with you, what I loved was that you were invested in trying to understand yourself.
When I was working with you, I never felt like I was trying to fix you. It was more like you were trying to make sense of yourself, and you were asking really insightful questions, and I could kind of share what I'm aware of. But again, it's not my experience. It's what I've learned. It's not what I've lived. And so then I was able to kind of be like, "Well, maybe it has something to do with this," or, "Does this match what you're experiencing?" And you'd be like, "Yes" or "No." And if yes, then we would start exploring what we could do with it. And if no, I'd be like, "Great. Toss that out. Not relevant here."
So yeah, I think for me, what I loved about working with you, and honestly still do to this day, is that you're so introspective, and your experience. You don't always have pretty words to put around it. You're not gonna be the most eloquent person, like, "Welcome to my world," but you know it. You get it. You see it. And I think that's- like, when I had introduced you to the board, I was like, "You know, my man Nick is a man of few words. But every single one of those words means something.”
Yes, they do.
Because there's so much thought behind it, and so you may only communicate a small piece, but there's so much going on in there. And I got to see that over years of you making sense of yourself, and the types of questions you would ask, words aside, was like, "Ooh, that is high level."
You're really making sense of yourself in a really high way, and I didn't attach a limited word choice or vocab or kind of how you were communicating. I didn't equate the lack of words coming out with the lack of thinking that was going on inside. And so I was like, "Cool. You're seeing it. You're getting it. You're trying to make sense of what it is that you're experiencing.” Then game on. How can I jump in? How can I share what I think I know? But it's your life, not mine. I'm just learning. So, if it fits, great. Take it, If it doesn't, toss it. And I think we've done that forever.
That's a great takeaway, because I feel like from my experience, I can learn from other students' experiences and use that to help them along the way, along their journeys and their paths and their careers.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I met you in middle school, where you're starting to make sense of yourself, but you're also starting to make sense of your peers. You asked some phenomenal questions about the choices that people around you were making. And you were asking from a genuine, like, "I'm trying to make sense of social interactions here." Especially being in a program that had a whole lot of kids who had a whole lot of needs. You were trying to make sense of a whole lot of things all at the same time. But what I loved was that when you would ask those questions, it made peers around you stop and think.
Because at first they felt a little called out. Like, "What? He's just saying all this stuff." Like, "That's so mean. Oh." But then, to help them understand, no, he's not calling you out on stuff. He's trying to make sense of the stuff that you're doing. And then it was like, "Oh, wait, what?" So all of a sudden, you became a mirror that all of your peers were looking at because you were just saying what you were seeing, which maybe, or maybe not, was what they were seeing.
But yeah, I think it was really cool to then have peers see you making sense of them and have that spurred their own introspection. Like, the ways you were already thinking inside your head were not necessarily the ways that they were thinking, but because you were starting to put words to it and start asking questions to make sense of it, then they would start hearing those questions and being like, "Oh, man, is that how I'm coming across?" Like, "Is that what he's thinking? Wait, is this real?" And so many peers would ask me questions like, "Wait, do people actually think that about me?" Well, let's walk that back. Are you doing anything that would make people think that way?
It may not be true, but are you showing up in those ways? And it was because you were trying to make sense of those things that you started putting words to things that students didn't even have words for. I know for you, you've got more words in your mind than what comes out of you.
But for them, it was the reverse. They didn't even have the words in the first place, and they weren't even being introspective the way you were. So you challenged them in a very honest way, which I loved. And it's also part of why I'm a champion for intermingling students who would be on the autism spectrum specifically, if you wanna call it high functioning, if you wanna call it Asperger's, if you wanna call it whatever, with students that do have the emotional and behavioral challenges. So if that's ADHD or a variety of emotional well-being concerns, there's really a beauty that when good classroom culture is built- man, it's so complementary. Your weaknesses are other people's strengths. Other people's weaknesses are your strengths. And when you can build that in togetherness, that was what I loved about being able to work with you, because it just made everything work.
Yes. It all comes together.
It does.
So what would you tell other people that wanted to go into the same path as you do? How would you get them to come aboard and encourage them?
Yeah. I think if I look back to myself when I first started my career, I was definitely the pour from an empty cup person. So, I see the need, I can meet the need, I can work really hard, I can do all the things, I can be all the things to all the people in all the ways. And I think it was later in my career when I started recognizing the physical toll that that was having on me. I know that had started when you and I were working together. But I don't think I fully understood where it was coming from or what this actually meant.
So yeah, I would say if professionals are drawn toward complex populations, so they're just coming with a whole lot that we are working through to try to find what those potentials and opportunities are within them. I think anyone who is drawn to that population just needs to find a way to not feel selfish when also doing things to take care of themselves, because I think for me, that has been the game changer with being able to have a lifelong career as opposed to a highly successful season. So if I'm gonna make a life of this, then I need to be able to do hard things, and I need to be able to pull back, refresh, so that I can turn around and go do hard things, and it needs to be a both/and.
And I don't think early in my career I was good at that at all. So yeah, I think anyone who's drawn to just working with either tough populations or in tough situations, just making sure that there's some intentionality behind how they're choosing to care for themselves throughout it as well.
And that's stuff that I could take myself. It can be hard, but it can also feel very rewarding because you're helping this student grow alongside you. And seeing the progress they've made from when they first started working with you to when they finish working with you can be a pretty rewarding experience.
Oh my gosh, preach. That is one of the reasons that I love working with populations or situations that just seem impossible. Because when you can figure it out, oh my gosh. You open so much, and that is just, like, I live for that moment where I'm like, "There it is." "I got it." And I am, I am very okay. I am definitely built in such a way that I can persevere and I can push through, sometimes maybe a little more than I probably should. But because I can see that moment that's there, it's a potential. It's a maybe, but there's a reality that can happen here. And so yeah, I think for real, one of the things that I have said about- I do a lot of work in emotional behavioral support, and I've always said, "When you win 'em, you win 'em big." They, they're gonna put you through it to win 'em.But when you win 'em, you win 'em real big.
That's my experience. And it's pretty rewarding.There are days where I just feel like, "I'm just done. I don't wanna do this anymore." But you persevere through it. You keep going. You want to see them succeed not just in the classroom, but in life in general, just like how you saw with me.
Yeah. I mean, I truly believe one of the many reasons that you were so successful as a student is because you did see life bigger than the school, bigger than the classroom, bigger than your classes or the coursework that we were doing; you saw all of those as opportunities for yourself just as a human, and making that make sense. And I mean, we worked together when you were in middle school; it's like these are very adult thoughts that you were having at younger ages. Your peers were not thinking that way at all.
No.
But I think that perseverance and that way of seeing the world, you're right, has pushed you so well. Just naturally propelled you into the type of work that you do now, the type of ways that you show up, and just the way you've continued to grow into who you are now and will continue to long into the future as well.
Yeah. And I hope to keep continuing my learning and my growth in this field, because knowing what I went through, I can help other people go through the same things that they see with other students every day.
Yeah. You do truly have an incredibly powerful voice, and that is so unique. There are not many people who either have your story or maybe even if they do have parts of your story, choose to share it, choose to help others through it. It is a rare human who can live it and turn around and share it for the betterment of other people. So yes, your voice in particular is so unique and so incredibly powerful. Please never forget that.
Yep. I don't forget that. I remember that every day, and I hope to reach other people and teach them about students with behaviors, because I wanna be a voice. I want to be a voice.
Well, you are, friend. You absolutely are.
I know. Thank you.
Well, before we sign off today, I would love to give you an opportunity to just encourage our staff who are choosing to champion hard kids. Is there anything that you would like them to know or anything that you would like them to sort of take away, just as people who are choosing to really champion kids with hard behavior?
And the takeaway is that if you put your heart into it, give those students a chance. You might come out of it with a newfound passion for something and a deeper understanding of kids like me, people like me. And you'll create memories that can last a lifetime.
Yes. That is so true, because I think I've always been very open-minded about working with difficult students, but every time I was able to show up in just kind of that curious way, I learned so much more.
That there is so much to understand, there is so much to explore, and then it gave me the ability to then creatively build some supports and rally some folks around making sense of and supporting hard kids. So yeah, I completely agree because I am a living example of what you just recommended.
And it's helped me become a paraprofessional and work with students, passing on my knowledge of what I know, what I learned from you.
Yeah. So cool. Well, thank you so much for hanging out with me this week. I appreciate your time and all of your insight, and I genuinely cannot wait to see where you go with your career. I appreciate you.
Thank you.
You've always been so incredibly insightful, and I love how you've challenged me.
Yeah. Thank you.
