All right, so this week, I have Dr. Colleen Evens with me. She is the coordinator of Culture and Climate at the second-largest school district in Illinois, and she has walked staff culture and student culture through so many different layers- if that's the way classrooms are run, the whole way through how district systems are built to support staff to create that student culture. So for you, Colleen, as you are thinking through this topic, what are some of the first reactions that you're having?
Sure. So there's a lot of buzzwords in education. We love acronyms. So I want to break down Culture and Climate just a little bit. When we hear the word culture, it's really about what we do, which is embedded in our beliefs and our value systems. And then climate is the feelings around it, and so it's tied to emotion. And so I want to ground us with those terms because really the what and the why of what do we do, why do we do it, and how do we feel about it in our education system? And so I start with a little bit of data.
I've gone into a lot of spaces, and I always ask the question of, "Why do people go into education? Tell me more about your journey." And it has always been such a 50/50 split. 50% of educators talk about how they were empowered by an educator as a student themselves, and they want to replicate that. And then the other 50% had a negative experience, and they want to make a change. So they're those change-goers. And when I think about that 50/50 split, then I also have to look at who the teachers and the educators in our system are. Currently, we have 37% of teachers in the US with 10 to 20 years of experience. So they're like in those teen years. And 26% have more than 20 years. So that total is at 63%. And I'm sharing this data because it really drives who is in the system and when they went through the system.
And so we have to start tying it to culture, climate, and what we do, our values, our beliefs, but our own experiences. What did we go through when we were students in the system? And so I pause there to ground us with behaviors and thoughts of how we see the system, and we really have to pay attention to the 1990s, when a lot of these educators- 63% of educators were students during a time when there were zero-tolerance policies. And that was an approach to drug enforcement. We started seeing drugs coming into the public education sector, and it just became this widely adopted philosophy. And so many adult educators grew up during this time when zero-tolerance policies were in place, and so they have their own thoughts on behavior and discipline. And I find that is so important to start to unravel. We have to not only recognize it, but we have to really break that down.
Well, especially if you're saying we are bringing forward into our career either things we liked and want to keep or things we didn't like and wanted to toss. Well, then going back to, so what was that experience that I am then comparing what I am bringing into my career against? And that is incredibly informative. I've never thought about that in that way before, but it makes so much sense. Because even our long-tenured teachers would have been really kind of graduating out right about as those, if it was policies or mandates or anything that was coming down, that would have caught them right at the tail end of their school experience, let alone the ramifications that have come from that. And especially with some of our younger teachers who would have just been barely starting, as those types of, I think, approaches to education would have just been starting. So they wouldn't have even known anything different at that point.
Yeah, and so we have to unpack positionality. And so positionality is a term that is really used more in a researcher framework. And it acknowledges that in research, when you're completing a dissertation, you're going through the IRB process. As a researcher, you have to share what your lived experiences are, your social location, and your perspective to really uncover that unconscious slant that could come into the research. But in schools, we also need to think about that because positionality starts to acknowledge that no one is completely objective. It's that intersection of experiences, but also our beliefs and our values.
So how do we interpret information? How do we build relationships? How do we exercise leadership in education? Are we replicating what we saw or going back to that 50-50 split? Are we trying to do something that is completely different? And how do others experience us? So I always love to go into a school system and do an activity with teachers, with leaders, and I put three different pictures up on the presentation system, and then I have them printed out so they are paper copies up on the wall.
And the first one is really to look at the childhood educational experience. With that first picture, you'll see students sitting in straight rows, wearing uniforms. Their eyes are looking forward, their hands are folded, very performative. There's complacency there. The second is kind of what you see a little more in our classrooms today. It's students at tables; they're in teams, they're a little more engaged, hands up, turning and talking to one another, lots of bright colors, tons of visuals all around the room. I always call out the teacher in the front of the room in this picture has a lanyard, and there are all these different things hanging off the lanyard. Pens, hand sanitizer, just a lot of sensory overload. And the third picture is outside. It's this whimsical forest. There are students with scarves. They have their rain boots on. They're dancing. They're moving around.
And so I start this activity by asking, "Look at all of them and notice what you observe, but also what are you starting to feel inside?" And then I want you to go and move to the picture that best represents what your childhood education experience resembled. And if it's not one of those three, use proximity if it's in between. And what I have found is most people go to picture one. They go to the straight rows. That was their experience. It was that students are meant to learn from the teacher. The teacher is talking. They hold the information, and the students are just collecting that information.
So then I always have everyone look around the room, because what we uncover there is your coworkers and why they set up their classrooms the way they do. Is it based on their experience, or is it the complete opposite? So I always follow up with the next question, which is, "If you could have chosen as a child where you would have gone to school, where would you stand now?" And every time I do this, it's like a complete shift. Those who went to the straight rows are going outside into the whimsical forest. And there are a few people who will stay, and we talk about that. Like, "Why is that so attractive to you?" And again, that 50/50 ratio of, "I either want to replicate it because it worked for me, or I want to do something completely different."
But what it starts to uncover is the positionality of what your experience was, and the longer you swim in a system, I think that's the saying, the more invisible it becomes with the fish in the fishbowl. If you only know one system because that was your exposure, we have to start to unpack that and look at that.
So then, as you're having these conversations, I find sometimes in that kind of like a developmental context, it can be really helpful. It's opening up maybe our perspectives, ways of viewing our past and how that is fueling our future, and kind of what we may or may not be bringing with ourselves that we aren't putting words to it. But at the end of the day, the conversation ends; we all go back to our classrooms, business goes on as usual. So how do you take those conversations that can be incredibly eye-opening and then help transfer that into what's actually going on, on a day-to-day basis?
Yeah. That's the lens to mirror work.
Talk to me through that.
Dr. Shawn Ginwright talks about this. Yeah, so Dr. Shawn Ginwright, he wrote "The Four Pivots." It was really focusing on healing and repair, but he creates these four pivots, and the first one is awareness from lens to mirror. The lens work is seeing it outwardly, but you have to do the mirror first. You have to know who you are as an educator, what your beliefs are, what your values are in your classroom, to then be able to start to form that psychological safety in teams as a school or as a district and go much larger. And so when we work in isolation, we don't make a lot of movement. It's like, go into your classroom, close the door. But that awareness piece is so important.
So I take that, and we do a lot of journal writing and reflecting, and I want people to start to uncover what their experiences were, but also what their coworkers' experiences were, so we can start to build stronger teams. When we are typically younger, we are told, we're given these messages about individual attributes. We want our kids to be the smartest, have the best grades, that high honor roll, high GPA, win that 100% attendance award, be the fastest runner, go to the best college.
We grow up, we enter the workforce, in this case, in education, and we're thrown into teams, and we're asked to collaborate, be part of committees, be a part of a team, and yet we've focused so much time on these individual attributes. So we really have to readjust our thinking in terms of how we have these courageous conversations, because that's where the work really starts to uncover.
There's a fascinating study done by Google Project Aristotle. This was quite a while ago, but Google really set out on a mission: how do you build the perfect team? And they thought the answer was pretty, I think, straightforward. If you're going to build your dream team, well, then you just need the highest-performing individuals in the room. But they were wrong. And they spent these two years and lots of resources. They studied over 180 teams to really figure out what makes a successful team. And psychological safety was the first thing that popped. And that happens through talking and listening and storytelling, essentially.
And so when we think of psychological safety, it's this space where people feel comfortable sharing their ideas. So doing an engagement activity that says, "This is who I was when I was a child. This was the system I was a part of," to "Now, let's start to build a team and a school and a district where we can re-envision or blue-sky something different for our students and take those risks without judgment or repercussions." It's okay to make mistakes. We're not here to judge one another's experiences or their positionality. We're here to learn more about it.
It's really interesting to hear you talk about how the assumed kind of human development is so, I say, self-centered not in the sense of how that's typically used, but in the sense that it is centered on the self. So, what am I myself being the best at, excelling in, those kinds of things. And then when you try to bring that into a group situation, of course, that's incredibly difficult because it's just, I've always had to be the best at, and so there hasn't been kind of the assumption or the expectation that that is actually to be leveraged within the group or for the whole.
And I find that to be a really American-centric view, because a lot of the spaces that I get to work in, I am the far exception within those spaces, and a lot of those cultures are very communal; still have bragging rights. It's not to say that there isn't that individual excellence component, because there very much is, but it's not just for myself. It's so that my network has that expertise within it, and then it can be leveraged for and within my network.
So it's just really interesting to listen to you conceptualize that because, yeah, I think looking back even through my own education, which was all American public ed, yeah, there is a lot of focus on, what am I myself excelling at? What can I do? What can't I do? What's my future going to be? And there wasn't, at least in my educational career, that expectation for collaboration in the sense that we have so overtly pushed into public ed now. But I think it's been interesting for me to see that because you're right, I think some of the educators in the classroom spaces that I get to work in, they are still kind of coming at it from that individual point of success and how each individual student is progressing.
And sometimes some of our most powerful collaborators and communicators within our students are not necessarily the ones that are hitting the high individual metrics, and they're sometimes even upheld as problematic if they're either not having the academic performance or they're showing up with behaviors that are outside of the norm or what's desired in that context. So it's just interesting to me to kind of do my own reflection as you're talking through this, saying, yeah, we're all bringing our own experience into that. But I think it's interesting for me too, because most of my contexts are groups and families that aren't coming from that context. But they're then getting plugged into systems within our public ed system.
And I think we have to also take into context here the idea around how much influence educators have when they are in front of students and their circles. And how that can be perceived in different ways of shame and guilt. There's a lot of that happening still in classrooms around behaviors, and it's a misunderstanding. And so that uncovering, right, the relationship portion. So when we think of relationships, when we think of Culture and Climate, what we do, our values, our beliefs, are we instilling that in others? Are we allowing students to explore their own values and beliefs and then expand on that from their own lens and from their own positionality? We talk a lot about relationships and connection in schools, and I wonder how much of it is transactional versus transformative?
And I only bring that up because there has been a lot of research done around adults remembering a time. I believe Brené Brown spoke about this. Like, 82% of adults were able to remember a time in school when they were told something negative by a teacher, an administrator, or a coach, and it forever changed them as a learner. That's a high number. 82%. That can forever change you. And there is a lot of shame research and guilt in that feeling of self or the focus on the behavior, like that teacher who, in front of the class, is holding up an example, saying, "Who did not write their name on the paper?" And then how is that student perceiving it? We don't always know. And we have to start to think more deeply about those relationships and make sure that, in those relationships, we're starting to unpack that.
I think the International Institute of Restorative Practices- it's called IIRP- they use that social discipline window. Or they call it the engagement window. I think they've changed. But what are we doing to students? But then what are we doing with students collaboratively? And then the other two boxes, which I'll talk about in a little bit, but it's the not, when we're just doing nothing at all, or we're doing so much for our students, to make up for that 50-50 split I talked about before of, "Well, I had this terrible experience. I don't want students to feel that way, so I'm going to make up for that and do everything for them." And we know that's not healthy. We want to really be in that ‘with’ window as much as possible.
So I talk a lot about social contracts and getting that student voice of, okay, what do students need from their teachers? What do teachers then need from their students? What do students need from their other students, their peers? And then what are we all going to do as a group together to make this space that psychological safety piece where we are coming together and we can make mistakes, and we can learn and find the joy of learning again? And those are such powerful moments that we are doing with students. We're at the beginning of the school year, so teachers are setting up their classrooms, they're putting their expectations on the walls, and I'm like, "What a missed opportunity. We should be doing this with our students." Setting up the classroom with our students. How do we want the space to look? Because it's not just the educator's home. It's where the students are living every single day. So how should we set up the desks? How should we do our stations? What should we put on the walls? What is helpful? Being very collaborative and intentional.
Yeah, but I think the examples that you're listing off are very concrete representations of ‘we have a collective voice here.’ There are times where my voice is going to be the one that needs to provide the directive or set the schedule. There are those times. But we collectively are actually doing this thing called education together. And everything that you just listed off- where are you putting the desk? What are we going to agree to? Anything that's on the walls, the way different things are laid out, or run, or scheduled. Those are opportunities that are so concrete to really make it so obvious that it's not just my way or the highway, which is a lot of how most of our current workforce has experienced it.
I want to dig in a little bit to this psychological safety piece, because I know a lot of the conversation we've been talking about understanding ourselves personally, how that shows up with our colleagues, but a lot of that is, so far in this conversation, been framed so that we can kind of show up in these ways with our students in these instructional spaces, or if you're a service provider, kind of how you're engaging with the youth that are coming through these educational systems.
But I think it's reminding me of a situation I was in. There was an assistant superintendent who was trying to encourage a room of kind of selected staff from across a very large district to engage in some district development work. And at one point, they just declared, "Guys, this is a psychologically safe space. Like, you just need to talk." And it was one of those where I was like, "I don't think you get to declare that." I don't think that you can just say that this is, because if that's not their experience, then maybe that's why they're not showing up in the ways that you're wishing that they would to be able to engage in that kind of a conversation, where in order to make growth or to plan a development effort forward, you kind of got to acknowledge what's not working, because then that's part of that development effort as you're moving forward. And people weren't bringing that into the space, and it was really frustrating to the assistant superintendent.
That experience sticks out to me in everything that you're talking about because I can close my door, and I can run my room, and I can do what I want to do with my students in my space. But at the end of the day, I also have to work with the colleagues in my building, the colleagues in my district, and whatever level of... Like, I myself have had roles across the whole hierarchy here. So depending on where that is, that shows up a bunch of different ways, but that psychological safety component is so much more than how do we set up a room when you start working with adults, and you're working in building systems and district systems.
So I want to make sure that we don't leave that part of the conversation out here, because I have worked with some amazing people who have phenomenal skills, and they can close their door and make magic happen. But when they open their door, it is unsafe. And so, how they engage in those spaces- I think you have a really strong perspective and a strong view and opinion to bring to this conversation that I want to make sure that we don't overlook.
Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think there is magic happening every single day. And I see this work of educators who see this territory that we're navigating. They see the windows, they see the mirrors, the lens to mirror, and they're engaging in that, and they are learning, and they are growing, and they're making meaning of different situations and really focusing on that relational work that is complex. And that is definitely happening.
Where I also think that with this psychological safety is accountability. And I bring up that tie of accountability because, just like psychological safety, it could seem like from the top down, right, this pyramid of, "Well, we see there's an issue, and so now we're going to engage with it, and we're going to put it into action, and then we're done." But it doesn't work that way. It's a spectrum, and it's always fluid. And so I bring in accountability as well, because it's not reaching up the rungs of a ladder and saying, "We've hit the top." It's how we're moving back and forth constantly, and are we aware of where we are in that space?
And so I've done a lot of accountability work around those C-suite positions, in businesses or in education. This is your cabinet level, your assistant superintendents, to say that psychological safety cannot happen from the top down. It has to happen with. And it's okay when we start to navigate away from it because that's natural. But how do we come back? And so when I think of accountability has become such an overused word also, I think, ‘how do we break that down?’ Well, are we denying? And what you're talking about, I think, is we're either in denial of, "Oh, this is a safe space. It's perfectly fine." But yet we miss the step of getting the voices of those, because there is a power dynamic. And if we're not addressing the power dynamic, then we're definitely not creating spaces that are psychologically safe.
So if we're going to stay in that denial phase, or if we're blaming others or making excuses, oftentimes I'll see waiting and hoping. "It's just going to go away. It's just temporary." We really have to live in that, acknowledging reality, and then starting to own it and find and implement solutions and start to break that down. And so I use those pieces of accountability as a spectrum.
I used to have it when I was a dean; I did this a lot with students. And it's like, "I did not throw the carrot across the lunchroom." "My friend made me do it." Okay, so we're blaming others. "Well, this happened." We're making excuses. "They did it too." "Okay, I did do it." Well, what can we do to fix it? "Well, pick it up and clean." And we move on.
But what I started to notice was on a whiteboard behind me. And I would often have staff come in, and parents come in, and I was strategic in where I was sitting because it was behind me. And now the adults were starting to engage in this... It was a rainbow, but this spectrum of accountability to say we fluctuate. But until we acknowledge the reality and start to find and create solutions to develop psychological safety, we are just going to be in that waiting and hoping, and we're not going to make movement. And we also need to celebrate those educators who are doing this work.
Yeah. I think as we're having this conversation, I am just reminded of how big this topic is. How many different researchers have researched it, or people have published information on it; how many different tools and resources and frameworks and visuals, and there are so many pieces around this work. I feel like sometimes it can get so siloed into just like, "This is the magical framework," or, "This is the approach that we use here." But the work is so much bigger than that, and it's so comprehensive, it's so all-reaching. It literally undermines and founds everything.
And so I appreciate you trying your best to capture how can this be practical? How can I take this and walk this into my classroom? How can I lead from this stance if I'm leading adults or district systems, or just providing one-on-one services with a student? How is that showing up across that entire spectrum? So I think before we log off today, is there anything that we haven't brought up that you think would be really helpful for folks to either be aware of or to think about, especially as they're kind of getting the school year started off?
Yeah. I think as we're thinking about systems and conceptualizing just all these different connections and research, one thing I really want to focus on is we cannot think our way through conscious teaching. We have to heal through it. I want to honor the fact that a lot of educators went through a system that was different, and we are changing, and our students' needs are changing. Technology is huge, AI and all the different facets that we have at our fingertips, and yet we're one of the most unconnected societies, and yet we have connection tools at our fingertips. But we have to heal through it. And the number one way to do that is presence.
Presence is what drives connection. And there's a lot of competing commitments in education. We have standardized testing, assessments, rigor walks, evaluations, pacing guides. I can name it all. Technology is changing. So we really have to make sure that we stay present in those connections and continue to build that. I think that's such an important piece that we often want to talk about the students. The students- what do the students need? But we are human in this work as well as the adults. And so one thing I love to do with teachers is have them answer these questions. Like, "When people look at me, I believe they see..." and they fill in the dot, dot, dot."But when people really know me...""And this is important to me because..." And I have found adults really struggle with this, but students do not. They will tell you what's on their mind. But as adults, right, it starts to open up the dialogue of we need to heal, too, in a system that was not made for everyone. And when you start doing that through storytelling, that's when you become more present and more conscious.
Well, thank you for the incredible, the Herculean lift that it is to be able to focus on Culture and Climate when there are so many competing priorities and different demands and mandates and other metrics that speak much louder than sometimes these things do. But it is such a foundational aspect that I really think I align with you well on this in saying that you cannot overlook this. That this sometimes can feel a little frou-frou or woo-woo or kind of whatever words you want to put on it, but at the end of the day, it's what's actually positioning ourselves to show up as our full human self in connection and collaboration with our colleagues, to lead well with those around us, including our students, our colleagues, and whatever systems we may be in.
So thank you for choosing to take on that heavy lift in your career, and to land this conversation in a position of presence. I think when you're dealing with such ambiguous, such heavy, and especially some very contentious conversations can come out of this type of work. But to land on an aspect of then just choosing to show up and to be present in whatever that moment is, for whatever that may be, I think is incredibly powerful, because this work can feel so overwhelming, and just larger than life and insurmountable, and it's impossible, and so why even try? As opposed to just choosing to kind of eat the elephant little bit by little bit. How can I show up? How can I leverage what this opportunity is giving me toward the best direction that I'm trying to make it move? So thank you so much for choosing that work as your life's career. I respect it a whole lot. And thank you so much for sharing your insights and your learning with everybody who's listening today as well.
It's been a pleasure to be here and to engage in conversation with you. Thank you so much.
