So this week, I have Judge Parga, longtime champion for youth and families through her work in the juvenile division, with Josh Axelsen, regional student services supervisor specializing in at-risk youth, as well as Mary Mangione, school and program administrator who is deeply passionate about students in difficult circumstances seeing real-life success.
And I'm just going to be a fly on the wall for this conversation because the three of you know each other much better. And so I am curious to learn from you how you have seen in your roles how courts and schools and social services- how does all of that come together for a student or any youth, really, that is either in crisis or they're navigating the justice system? They've got so many different things going on around them. How have you come together to navigate that with them?
Mary Mangione: So, I can start off by saying I think the common denominator here is that we care deeply about positive outcomes for our students, and we care deeply about how families navigate this process. And through that process, I was able to reach out to Josh to say, "Hey, I need help with this kid. What's going on with this court case?" Or, "How can I help with this?" Then he would loop in Judge Parga, and soon enough, I think that because the three entities really cared about the wellness and the progress of students, we just decided to problem-solve together. I mean, that is very simple. Simply put, we decided to just, "You know what? Let's work together and figure out a system that's going to work for families and students."
Judge Parga: And I think it was Mr. Axelsen who connected us, as Ms. Mangione is saying, extending an invitation from her to come to Dream Academy, sit down, have a conversation about the school, how it worked, what we were doing in court, and how we could support each other. And so we did gather for that first meeting, and were all there to have that discussion, and I think put faces to names and realized that we had that common goal and interest, and wanted to support each other in our roles for the benefit of the kids.
Josh Axelsen: Yeah. And I think with this work, I think a lot of us realized that we have a lot of people pulling the rope, but sometimes we're not pulling the rope in the same direction. Some of that miscommunication- or I've seen in the past where a school is trying this intervention or these support services, but then, not saying that this took place with us, but other judges, where then they're having an order that's counterproductive. Or not knowing just what we know of youth, they're very complex. There are a lot of things going on. And so, really creating the mechanism to have these different entities talk together, and I think that's been so powerful.
For example, we've had some youth that really struggled attending counseling services outside of school. They just had transportation obstacles, or they just had a parent that really wasn't being productive. Sure, there can be court orders mandating that parents have to do it, but I think what was kind of powerful about our team was that we're problem solvers. How do we fix it?
And so one of our ways was, "Hey, if we can't get the kids to counseling outside of school, let's bring a counseling partnership to Dream Academy." And so when Ms. Mangione was there, we had an LCSW clinician coming in, and if we had a court-involved youth that was struggling to get those counseling sessions, magically, they'd go to the top of the list.And I'd be like, "Mary, hey, we need to get this kid in and get them seeing a counselor because yes, we know there's a court order, but really more importantly, they really need it, and here's what's going on."
And so I think just having those open lines of communication, within reason that we're legally allowed to, has just been super, super beneficial where those outcomes for kids…I always say this, we have the ability to change family trees, and I think with some of the kids we served, we're literally changing family trees.
Yeah, I appreciate that it is just so palpable, the genuine deep respect for each other, each other's systems, kind of the bounds in which you have to operate. But there's also this through-line passion of like, "So how can we get these outcomes for these students, for these families, for these communities? How can that actually become a reality? And then how can we work our own systems on behalf of, and then integrate as creatively as we can to try to get that outcome?" That it's not just, "These are the systems, here are the obstacles, here are the lines that we have to live within, but here is that big picture that we all share. Now, how do we get there?How do we actually make that happen?"
I mean, that speaks to each of you in your own professional career; how you choose to show up in the workplace, but that's hard work. That is much bigger than the nine-to-five, just check the boxes, make things happen, and go home at the end of the day. So, how do you choose to show up that way in your careers that are so incredibly demanding?
Mary Mangione: You can't help it when you're inspired. I just want to add that I feel like it was incremental; my passion for this work kept increasing as I worked with this team over the years. I would hear coming from the school, Josh and I are both educators, so coming from schools, we kind of have a roadmap as to how we support students and families. But then to go to ROE for an open table or whatever you host, Josh, right? When we go to one of those things, and Judge Parga is there talking about how we can all work together to support families, and that's ultimately her goal, and she's working to change the system. And when she's sitting at our table discussing what she's doing differently so that she can impact schools, you can't help but feel inspired by what she's doing. So I have so much respect, and I'm just so inspired by the work that you're doing.
Judge Parga: I appreciate it. And I do really see my courtroom as a team. And the educators, the Office of Education, it's all of us. Our kids and families come to us with a lot of needs, and the school is really at the front line of that; oftentimes, they know those kids so well. And so, to be able to rely on them to provide critical information to us about struggles that may not be related to the file in front of me, but provide the context of what's happening so we know how to address the individual as opposed to just, "You're just another file. You're just another number." And so, I just felt really fortunate to have the collaboration and the partnership. I mean, I don't know how you do the job without it.We as judges know the least of anything in front of us. And to me, I think it's just liking, and maybe it's nosiness, like wanting to know that story, right? Why is this child here? Why is this family here? How did we get here? That's such valuable information that they had. And then, when you hear kids aren't going to school or they've been suspended, why? And how do we help them? And what are the next steps? And seeing that the people at school are pulling for them as hard as you, as any parent, would hope for or want is equally inspiring. Teachers, they are changing kids' lives, so it's an awesome partnership, and I can't say enough good things.
Well, but that's an incredibly humble position to say, "Hey, as the judge in the room, I'm the least informed about some of these things." That is-
Judge Parga: It's true, though.
I hear you, and I don't know that I disagree with you, but when you put words to it like that, I think there may be some people that disagree. And especially in that room, you definitely seem like the one who has the power, that you are the one who is in charge of that entire space and the decisions that are coming through. So to also say in full humility, like, "Yes, I have that role, but also..." Right? "But also, I'm not as up to speed or as informed." I'm wondering, over the course of your career, what have you learned about education? How have you kind of come to terms with trying to close that gap?
Not necessarily to be the expert in education. You've got great people flanking you to help you make that make sense. But I'm wondering, over the course of your career, were there misconceptions or things that you're like, "Oh, gosh, I did not understand that." Or even as you're thinking about your colleagues, like, "Here are some gaps. These are things that if other folks in my role kind of had an idea about this or that, then decision-making could be more in alignment."
Judge Parga: Absolutely. I mean, misconceptions, I think before getting to know Ms. Mangione, working with Mr. Axelsen, I had to rely on what kids were telling me as to why they weren't going to school or what had happened, or why they couldn't get back to a certain school or something was unavailable. And of course, kids are kids, so they're going to be dramatic. And if that's what I have, I'm thinking, "Oh my goodness, how do you sit in a room for eight hours and the teacher won't help you?" Like, "How can that be?" You can't ask anyone any questions. And so, definitely, misconceptions were debunked by visiting, having conversations, learning, and asking questions.
And I think that it's hard for me to think about how another judge might handle cases without that help. Because, to your point, we are making really big and important decisions. And even in just how we talk to kids, it matters. And so, when I have the benefit of hearing from Dream Academy, from Mr. Axelsen, "Hey, this is happening," or, "This works," or, "This child needs this, and if you order a psychological evaluation, it can help us figure out some educational components." That, to me, is like I've got the easy role then. I just sign the order. But these are critical decisions that, to Mr. Axelsen's point, do change the trajectory for some kid. It's going to make a huge difference in their perception of themselves, their education, and others. It's huge.
Well, then I'm going to kick it over to you, Josh, because I've worked with a lot of students that are like, "All I had to do was get booked, and finally people care about me." And how many different supports and things are available before students are ending up in judicial systems as they're trying to process through and kind of figure out what's on the other side of that for them. What does that look like for you? I'm thinking that systems involvement piece, but also the early intervention. How are you seeing and meeting and identifying, communicating all of the things that are coming across your desk?
Josh Axelsen: Yeah, I think that's a great question. Again, I think it's been loud and clear; we're really blessed here in Kane County to work with some great people that really care about students. We're really fortunate. I don't know if all counties have that ability, and we've been really lucky to work on that prevention piece through alternative learning opportunities programs. We have 25 different locations across Kane County, programs like Dream Academy, Success Academy, Oakridge, just schools that are able to meet the kids that really weren't making it in that comprehensive school setting. And what I love best about these programs is that they're there to meet the students' needs.
And I was recently presenting for our county board, and I had to give a plug for our students that they are the best champions for their peers. And I know Ms. Mangione will agree with this because she's seen it time and time again where one of their friends would go, "Hey, I'm getting the support here. I really think you're going to benefit from that support. Let's make sure we get you a referral over because I think you're going to be successful with that." And so we've done a really, really good job on that prevention piece. And I think also, too, storytelling is such a powerful skill.
Telling the stories of our students, how they've overcome difficult situations, that really resonates with people. And so when it's looking for that funding piece, I know with our Juvenile Justice Council last year asking for funds to put on a four-part truancy prevention training series, how can we support our schools with tiered interventions to address chronic absenteeism and truancy? They were all for it because they know that prevention piece is so key. They've heard the stories of students that have been successful through our alternative programs or through our truancy prevention program, or those stories of our youth that were involved in court and were able to get those supports. And so I think just really that storytelling piece and building those programs. It's taken time, but now you're finally seeing the fruits of your labor.
Mary Mangione: I think Josh is being very modest here, but if you think about it, the partnership here was really the mastermind of Josh. Because of his previous educational experience, he knows exactly what it is and what it's like to be in my seat, to be working with the students that I'm working with. So he has come up with, to me it seems like no-brainer solutions or easy solutions, and I'm sure it wasn't easy because he's doing some things that are really innovative at the regional office level that just make both of our jobs easier, Judge Parga and me. Even alone, some of the staff members that he has hired at the regional office that work with him directly, and that I work directly with, have made that communication piece a lot easier.
Oh, I remember conversations with you early on, Mary, where you were like, "There are so many needs. There are many more needs than what I can meet as a building administrator, let alone within our program, even when we start getting creative about how we can use instructional minutes and what part of the day we're using and all of the things." How did you really go about making those local partners where it feels like you're kind of on your own? And especially when you're advocating for really hard kids, and in my very one-sided opinion, especially students who've already been removed from those comprehensives, it is kind of just like a ‘not my issue anymore.’ So now you're out here advocating on behalf of these kids to get all kinds of supports and services, not just to meet these academic metrics, but so that they can have real, legitimate life outcomes coming through that. How did you go about navigating that as an administrator?
Mary Mangione: I think that I was lucky to be working in a large district with lots of resources. I just had to find it because it's all tucked away in different corners and pockets and funding sources. So it was really like Josh was saying, telling that story and then framing it in a way so that people would want to listen. And then, as I said, we had direct partnership with the regional office. So when I hit a roadblock, Josh was always the first person I called, and I would say, "I need help. What do I do? What do I do with this situation?"
Yeah, but that speaks to your collegiality. That you can come up against something and have that phone-a-friend to be like, "Unlock this for me. What am I not seeing? Where do I go from here? What's the next step? How do I work around this? Tell me what I don't know." But to be able to have those phone-a-friends, that is, honestly, sometimes it's a luxury. To know that I can actually call someone who is actually going to be informed and will really be able to guide me in whatever my next steps can be, especially those who are not in my system. To know enough about each other's systems and each other's worlds to be able to kind of point those things out from the outside, that's amazing. That is not common.
Judge Parga: And I think, to Ms. Mangione's point, it was really Mr. Axelsen. He was my phone-a-friend too whenever educational issues came up. And so this idea of having that liaison in the courtroom was his. And can we have someone there who can be the warm handoff for these educational questions, problems, issues? And it was a great idea because it has really been so helpful to kids and families, and was really the start of what put our group together and helped us to get to know one another better and collaborate more with one another. Mr. Axelsen was that next step.
Josh Axelsen: And I'll have to share a little bit about that idea. I think it just came about of some of those questions and phone-a-friends, as Judge Parga and Ms. Mangione brought up, where sometimes it was like, hey, I had to step out of meetings and do it. And I was just thinking, "Why don't we have somebody that just has access, that can just be in the courtroom?" Who's like, "Hey, I'm here. I'm going to stand up, and what can I do to help you?" And I remember sitting in a conference room with a meeting, and Judge Parga's asking me questions, "Well, can we do this? Can we do that?" And I remember saying, "I don't know how this is going to work, but just bear with me. I know we're going to figure this out. We're going to build the airplane as we're flying it.It's going to be a good idea. We just need to figure out the rhythm and how it's going to work." And we figured it out.
But I think that's also the partnerships of people who are, I think, willing to fail. That we're not going to get it right every single time, or we're going to get it right away at the beginning. But we know in the long run, this is going to benefit kids. This is going to benefit families. And I think that we've really found our stride. We found those systems, and it's been pretty remarkable.
Case in point, one of the defense attorneys is sitting in court and advocating for his client and texted me last week going, "Hey, my client wants to play girls' flag football.What can we do?" He texted me. Within 30 minutes, we have the high school principal on the phone who's now developing a behavior contract, and the student's at a public day school who's now reaching out to the high school principal at the home school to see what we can do to get the girl to play flag football this fall. And again, we know with the school systems and court systems, something like that could take a matter of days or weeks.
And in a kid's life, that's an eon. It might as well be three or four years, where it's nice to have those partnerships in place that we know the people to contact, where we can get the ball rolling in an hour or two, which I think is just so powerful. And so many of the kids, sadly, they've seen it where adults promise them something, and they just never follow through. And that is so disheartening for so many of the kids that we work with. And so I think sometimes the students and minors see, "Hey, here are adults that are actually keeping their word. I'm not used to this. This is almost too good to be true." And I think that's just such a powerful thing.
Yeah, I mean, that's looking back through my career, that is... I did not understand how powerful it was to simply say something and then actually do it. That was always such a massive game-changer in the relationship that I had with my students who- My career is all emotional, behavioral, well-being disorder types of needs, diagnosed or undiagnosed, in a variety of different settings, and that crossed all the bounds. It did not matter if the kid was just showing up with a whole lot. Simply saying what I meant, meaning what I said, and then having my actions align with that was so powerful. I did not understand that that's just me as a person, but I didn't understand throughout my entire career how much heavy lifting that was doing on my behalf in incredibly contentious relationships, situations, and really hard decisions that need to be made with and around these students and their families.
So I know you guys are talking about this from kind of the other side. You've walked through this, you've figured these things out, and you've got this wonderful working relationship. But Josh, you're also saying, "Hey, it didn't start that way." And I know that, especially when we're looking at crossing all of these boundaries across different entities and what kind of different groups are beholden to. Trying to find where that opportunity lies, it sounds like it was just a personal choice.Every single one of you decided, "We're just going to figure this out." Like, there has to be an opportunity here.
So I'm curious for you, were there moments that you were kind of fearful, like, "Oh gosh, this might not actually work." Or like, "If this thing doesn't get figured out, then even if we want it, this partnership may not actually be as viable as we think it might be." Anything like that that showed up for you guys as you were walking this out?
Josh Axelsen: I'll go ahead and start. I think for me, sometimes you just have to have that blind faith. Like, “Hey, let's just jump in.” And again, I think when you surround yourself with really good people, good things are going to happen. Were there times I had trepidation? Yeah. Or were there times like, "God, this is a heavy lift. This is going to be a tough one." But I think it's just that, at the end of the day, our kids deserve it. Our families deserve it. And I think I try to live by the adage: if this were my family member, is this what I would want to be doing to champion them?
Because I hope if I were in that situation with my own kids, somebody would be willing to do that, to go to the ends of the earth to support them. And I think that's just kind of how I live by, and that's just kind of always been my frame of mind in the families we support: hey, if this was my family member, what would I do? And I think families find that really genuine. And even though, yes, we're focused on youth and stuff, I think how many times do I remember through my career asking parents, "Are you doing okay? Are things going okay with you?" Because we know our parents are such an important aspect of the minors we work with. And so, it's just being human, being good to your neighbor, being good to the people you're working with. And as I said, it's just having that blind faith that, hey, we need this to work because our kids really do deserve it.
Judge Parga: I'll just add that I think that when you work with the population of kids and families that we do, I think it's easy to sometimes feel like nobody cares about them. And that's really hard when you're trying to find services and people are closing down, or it's just not available. And I think that when you have an opportunity to be in a space with Ms. Mangione and Mr. Axelsen, Ms. Mangione talked about that workshop that Mr. Axelsen put together. For me, listening and hearing that there are other people who really care about this population of kids that sometimes feel forgotten or overlooked, and at worst just no one cares, gives me a lot of faith and hope. And so, I don't know that I ever doubted. And when you hear that from other people, it is inspiring, and you feel like, "Okay, I'm not in the rowboat by myself." I've got people with me, and together, we've each got our strengths and things that we can offer this family, this child.
And to me, it was just inspiring. And so, I don't know that I had that doubt because I knew that's who was in the boat with me, and I knew they really cared and that they were so passionate about these kids, these families, and their well-being that it just felt like we couldn't fail. This team was just going to be invincible because that's what it takes. You have to want to do it and be passionate about it, and that's who was on the team.
Mary Mangione: So sometimes I could be really naive about services for students and teams that work to do this kind of work for students. So when we think about, did I know that this team would succeed? I really didn't know any better. I didn't realize that we were a team. Josh probably knew, maybe Judge Parga knew, but I just knew that I needed help. And in my previous school experiences, anytime a student was absent, I had no idea where they were. Maybe they were in the hospital, maybe they were in the detention center. I really wouldn't know until they came back. So it was always this black hole if they were in the detention center.
But when I was at Dream, students would come into my office and just spill all this information, and they had so much anxiety about being back and what was going to happen to them. And they would start sharing, "I'm in so much trouble," like, "I really want to do well." And we would just start talking, and I would say, "Well, who's your judge?" And they would tell me, "Judge Parga." I'm like, "Oh, I know her.All she cares about is you doing well, coming to school, making sure you're coming to school on time. I guarantee you she's going to be so happy." And that would just reassure them, and they would just leave my office with a big smile.
Judge Parga: What a credit to Ms. Mangione that kids are coming to talk to her that way. That's what I mean. Those are relationships that you earn by how you have treated them. Mr. Axelsen talked about being human and treating people like human beings. And that's the end result: that trust that I need someone to talk to and you're my person. I'm going to come tell you. I think that's awesome.
Mary Mangione: Well, I think we all know that they weren't necessarily dealt a fair hand early on in their life. So when we hear that story, we realize that it's really the adults around them that truly impacted some of the choices that they made. And now you're a young adult, so now it is up to you, which is much harder to undo. And I think that's the piece that we collectively feel like we just really need to go above and beyond for some of these students.
Well, that speaks to every single one of your characters. That you're choosing to see students, families, communities that are not being championed naturally, and I can hear through this entire conversation just that depth of genuine, "This is who I am. This is what I stand for. This is what I believe, and I am going to do whatever it is within whatever power I have and whatever system it is that I am located to champion and make these opportunities available. Make these potential future outcomes an actual reality as opposed to just some dream or some something that might be nice." But I think sometimes this work can also be full of maybe, like, performative action, and it's not truly meaningful to the people it’s meant to reach.
So, before we log off today, I know that that's just kind of who you are. That's just how you show up. It's how you engage.But I'm curious if there is anything that you're thinking of that is just so clearly not performative that you can't have this outcome, you can't do these things and still have it just be a checkbox. Like, it needs to be integrated into just who you are and how you're showing up. I'm wondering if there's anything along those lines that's showing up for you.
Mary Mangione: I think a lot of it really has to do with Judge Parga's work. The last roundtable I was sitting in, we were talking about how the courts are looking at providing services and identifying what kind of services families need versus being punitive. And that is very much in the same wheelhouse as where I come from. If we're going to change student behaviors, we cannot be punitive. We need to teach them and reteach them appropriate behaviors, and they need to see success in it. I think it's very similar in the court system. And the way that she spoke about that and the way she is talking in front of stakeholders who really do make an impact, direct impact, that's inspiring.
And that's when I realized that someone had told me not every county does it this way, and I was kind of like, "What do you mean? This is all I know." So, I just know that that speaks volumes because that does trickle on to the school administrators and ROE, and that definitely makes a huge impact on how we continue to work with students versus, "Well, we're just going to put our hands up because now they're in trouble with the court, and that's it." So that's, I think, a story that I would like to share is that it's very much different when you dive a little deeper.
Josh Axelsen: Yeah. And again, I shared earlier the power of storytelling. And Judge Parga, if at any time I got to stop this story, please tell me to stop. But it was a case at the end of last year, and it was just a minor who had a really tough upbringing, was involved with DCFS, abuse/neglect cases, delinquency cases, and was really bouncing around and never really had his voice heard, and had a Kane County case. And I remember there were some other agencies where they really, in my opinion, weren't doing what was best for the minor and were kind of putting up roadblocks. I remember Judge Parga very politely saying, "Well, that's just not how we do things around here." "That's not how we do things here. That minor has a voice. Their voice is going to be heard." And I think that, for me, has always been inspiring that she's in a really powerful position. She's a judge, but you're always feeling respected. And that's for me as a professional, but that's also for the families that come into her courtroom.
At the end of the day, these are their children. Their parents, in my opinion, are the most important educators for that kid. They're their parents. But then also the minors, they're treated with respect, and just kind of the adage, "This is how we do things in Kane County." I know there have been times where, if it's a student receiving emotional and behavioral support, may be disrespectful when they're hearing bad news, I would let Judge Parga know that, "Hey, they might not take this news very well. They're not trying to be disrespectful, but this is how their emotions may show." And she's like, "Thanks for letting me know." Where I think those things just have been so powerful, and it inspires me to continue doing this work.
Because again, as I was joking earlier as we were just chatting, today's been a rough day. But being able to talk with professionals who really champion this work, who really are passionate about it, that's what helps inspire you to get up those early mornings when you just kind of want to sit in bed and, hey, take a day off.
Judge Parga: And I would just really encourage other circuits to consider partnering with the Regional Office of Education and to just explore that collaboration piece. Because I think that when, as the judge, the judicial partners in the courtroom are mandated with serving youth and doing what's in their best interest, that is a big mandate, and it's not just that file in front of me. They're coming in with a lot of issues, and education is often one of them. And so, I think it's so helpful just to have that help, have that expertise, have that go-to, and to really just take a holistic approach to those kids and families and see how we can, as a team, serve them better.
And keeping those lines of communication open is invaluable. Asking for help. We all need it. We all don't know everything. And what better example for our kids? Like, we don't know; we ask. How many times do we say that as parents? I think as adults, we have to model it too. So, I couldn't encourage others more to really consider a model like ours for their school systems and judicial systems.
Well, thank you so much. Every single one of you individually choosing to champion what you can in the systems that you are in, but also choosing to champion together and collectively on behalf of outcomes that are so much bigger than what any one of your systems could actually make happen. So thank you for choosing to spend the time with me and having this conversation. I know y'all get to work with each other on the regular, so I'm just thankful to be along for the ride on this. So thank you so much for bringing your voice here. I really appreciate it.
Mary Mangione: Thanks, Heather.
Judge Parga: Thank you.
Josh Axelsen: Yeah, thank you.
